ForumTitleContentMemberSexCountryDate/Time
USCIS Service CentersUSCIS DOING 'EXTENSIVE' CHECKS COZ OF TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF K1 FRAUDS???? WHAT!!!!
QUOTE (kalapino @ Jun 19 2008, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
don't worry about what lawyers say


Oh, always worry about what they say, just don't readily believe a word of it!!

Seriously though, visa fraud is the primary responsibility of DoS consular posts issuing visas, not the USCIS adjudication process, because the incidence of visa fraud is not uniform across all countries. Quite the opposite. Given the basic rule in both USCIS and DoS processing of K-1 cases is that the onus is on the petitioner and beneficiary to demonstrate they are not committing visa fraud, not on the USCIS/DoS to demonstrate they are, there is actually little need to have new rules or extra processing time, because the old rules and procedures work as perfectly well as anything else would.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-19 14:25:00
USCIS Service CentersUSCIS DOING 'EXTENSIVE' CHECKS COZ OF TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF K1 FRAUDS???? WHAT!!!!
QUOTE (RussellandMarie @ Jun 19 2008, 03:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...On her email our lawyer said that the reason why USCIS is in some sort of a slow mode lately is because it is conducting 'extensive' background investigations because there has been tremendous amount of frauds in the fiance(e) visas that has been found out.....


I would be very cautious about taking what you've been told as meaningful and accurate, because there is no indication inside the USCIS that it is. Service Centers have been undergoing a significant amount of rationalization and internal reorganizations as workloads have been shifted around and that has caused a lot of disruptions, which create almost instant backlogs due to sheer volume of cases. Those of us who've been 'in the system' for years have seen it all before, because this sort of thing is the way bureaucracies work, and particularly how they respond to their own inefficiencies when under political pressure to improve performance.

I would assume the (sadly) usual USCIS inefficiencies and knee-jerk reactions to workload are far more likely as an explanation for CSC delays than that your attorney has given you particularly accurate insider information.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-19 14:04:00
US Embassy and Consulate DiscussionOCD/Suicide Attempt and Immigration
Pretty much every State has laws that are beyond bizarre and sometimes completely nuts, but even if found unconstitutional, because of the way US law is drafted and made, such things are rarely withdrawn so they may lie on the books for all time. That doesn't mean they have any validity or force. Those that define 'acceptable' sexual practices are a good case in point. Not only are they unenforceable, but as a result of US Supreme Court opinions in recent years, have become ineffective.

In the US, what is, and isn't 'law' is not just about what is listed on the statute books.

As such, even if there WERE an active law criminalising suicide in any given State, immigration law is Federal. It does not have to recognise State law in such an area, and indeed does not. Immigration law lays down the basis on which a visa application can be denied, and whilst mental illness has a tangential part in the potential for rendering an applicant ineligible, such would only be the case if the individual was a danger to him/herself. In a situation where there was medical evidence of good control and no recent (ie, within the last 5 years) deviations from safe and effective treatment, there would be no grounds for such an ineligibility finding.

Details on what medical grounds DO constitute ineligibility can be found at http://www.visalaw.c...r1/2mar104.html and for those with a broader interest, the broader areas in which there can be grounds for inadmissibility can be found http://www.visalaw.c...r1/2apr105.html
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-29 10:35:00
US Embassy and Consulate DiscussionWIndow 1
I have to say that while it was rather a long time ago when I went through London for my interview, I was incredibly impressed by how efficient and good natured the workers there were, considering they face the same repetitious and mind-numbing tasks hundreds of times every day, and have to complete everything within compressed timeframes in order to get the volume of work completed successfully.

That's not to say that there aren't some who have a bad day and snap, or who respond a little less courteously than they should if faced by something out of the ordinary or which conflicts with the imperative to complete their workload, but of all the consulates, London is one that has consistently generated amongst the fewest complaints.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-04 09:46:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
QUOTE (dudu2black @ Jun 18 2008, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My question now is this: Do i go crawling and begging or go on with the waiver? If i go crawling and begging her and she decides to sign with me it will save me lawyers fees. On the other hand should i just face the reality of my situation get a lawyer and get over with my worries?


There is just no way anyone but you can answer that question, because only you know the circumstances, the personalities, the issues and the way it all feels. All we can do really is give you the practical details about what your options are in regard to immigration issues and the broad practicalities - which I think has been done here.

You face a rather uncertain future either way as you obviously appreciate. Jointly filed I-751 petitions are far easier to get approved than self-petitioned ones, even if only because they fit in the mainstream of cases so they need less examination and personal judgement on the part of immigration officials adjudicating them. On the other hand, even if your wife is prepared to jointly file, there is no guarantee she will not withdraw (or threaten it) or refuse to co-operate (or threaten it) if the case is referred for interview. If she likes to wield power over you, it seems likely she would use what leverage she could, and a joint I-751 might seem to her to be such leverage. Only you know her well enough to make that judgement, or know whether you could cope with the stresses and strains if it were to happen.

On the other hand, self-petitioning takes all the power away from her, and means your fate is entirely in your own hands. Approval then depends on what evidence you have been able to provide to establish the on-going abuse as sufficient to destroy the marriage you entered into in good faith. Only you know what evidence you may be able to put together, both in terms of having entered into marriage in good faith, and been the victim of abuse which then caused it to collapse.

One thing is for sure, you are well advised to 'face the reality of your situation' as you put it, and think in practical terms, not emotional ones. Unless you are prepared to co-file with your wife and trust she will remain cooperative, a good immigration attorney is an absolute essential. The sooner you hire one the sooner you can get your life and future back under some semblance of your own control.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-19 09:42:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
QUOTE (dudu2black @ Jun 18 2008, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I intend to write a book based on my experience as an alien or k-1 spouse. I have no doubt that my situation is one of many cases. I have many times gotten to the point where i want to give up everything that i have going on for me here in the U.S and return home where i am from so has to have a peace of ming and no to be a slave of love.

Over a year ago my spouse wanted to prove a point to me over an argument .Even though she was the one that did me wrong she called the cops on me and lied that i hit her (guess what she was the one that hit me).I was flabbergasted and can never forget or forgive. Anyway police report says" domestic battery"I was arrested taken to jail for just a night .I was not charged and the case was dismissed in court. You may wounder what i am still doing in such a spouse...my kids?

My question now is if i am filling out the 1-175 form where it says" have you been arrested, jailed "e.t.c.Since it was dismissed do i still thick the box or skip it?


I used to be very active in immigration casework, and yours is sadly not at all unusual. Indeed, there have been many, many people over the years who have come to the US with good intentions and who married in good faith, and have found their existence here to be one of vulnerability and isolation. Abuse too, sad to say. Neither has it been unusual to see cases where a US citizen spouse has level accusations of abuse or battery, sometimes for leverage, sometimes as a way to try and extricate themselves from marriage and try and have their partner deported (though it doesn't work quite that simply as they later find out) or just to demonstrate that they can. It may not help you at all to know you are not alone in this experience, but you are certainly not!

Neither are the USCIS entirely unaware of it happening either, or of the human issues and the sort of reasoning as you have expressed. As an agency they don't much care, but individual adjudicating officers see this regularly, so they have a better understanding and feel for it than most would give them credit for. Indeed, your point about sticking it out for the sake of the children is another very common theme in this sort of situation.

In terms of the arrest, as said you must include it. However, depending on the documentation of the incident you may have or be able to obtain, it may actually help you. Remember, the crux of this is to gather evidence which shows you are the victim of abuse, that being one single incident.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-18 13:51:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
QUOTE (cherr1980 @ Jun 18 2008, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Andy @ Jun 18 2008, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (cherr1980 @ Jun 18 2008, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The law is pretty clear, you can't file if you are separated or in divorce proceedings.


Yes you can. Check the current I-751 itself, it allows for self-petitioning prior to divorce in cases of abuse.

QUOTE (cherr1980 @ Jun 18 2008, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(immigration) is govern by state law


Not quite sure what you mean, but to be clear, immigration is entirely federal law. Family law is (almost) entirely State.



Yes, I know that...but that's if his immigration attorney tells him that he has enough proof to make such filing. We don't know...if he does...good for him, he will be good to go.

Oh yeah...I mean...marriage/divorce and anullment is goverment by State law not federal (like immigration) I guess that's what I mean.


There are several very obvious things in this case if taken at face value based on what has been posted. The first is that an I-751 is pending, whether immediately or into the future we don't know. The second is that the OP is the victim of abuse. The third is that the spouse is resistant to co-signing an I-751. Additionally, there are children involved, though we don't know whether they are US citizens or not - a factor which could be material in the choice of filing.

Immigration makes it very clear that in a case where an I-751 is pending but the immigrant spouse has been victim of abuse and the citizen spouse refuses to sign, the immigrant can self-petition, and no divorce is required to have been actioned or even filed in order to allow that. There is nothing in the immigration issues here more complex than that. To be sure, self-petitioning on the basis of abuse will require supporting evidence, and good legal counsel is always advisable when stepping outside the mainstream of cases, but the OP here has very clear and simple rights to self petition.

The family law issues which you raise are entirely valid, but are not part of the immigration case - and since the OP can self-petition if the abuse is as described, and needs not wait for divorce to do so, there is no issue relating to the family law side of this horrible situation which would render that more imperative than pursuing the immigration issue where that is pending and failure to do so would result in loss of status, putting the OP into an even more hazardous (and much more expensive) immigration situation.

Bearing in mind that USCIS adjudication of a self-petitioned I-751 where abuse is being claimed may be affected by a delay in filing ('exactly how much abuse must there have been' being the most obvious question an adjudicator would ponder) there is no advantage or purpose to delaying filing, other than to gather and assemble evidence and possibly make final attempts at resolving the matrimonial conflicts. The law however was written very clearly to provide a means to protect victims of abuse from having to delay.

That's really my only point. In broad terms your comments regarding the family law aspects of this are right - just that while those are of utmost importance in the human sense, they are not necessarily so in the legal sense.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-18 12:01:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
QUOTE (cherr1980 @ Jun 18 2008, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The law is pretty clear, you can't file if you are separated or in divorce proceedings.


Yes you can. Check the current I-751 itself, it allows for self-petitioning prior to divorce in cases of abuse.

QUOTE (cherr1980 @ Jun 18 2008, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(immigration) is govern by state law


Not quite sure what you mean, but to be clear, immigration is entirely federal law. Family law is (almost) entirely State.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-18 11:39:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
QUOTE (dudu2black @ Jun 17 2008, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Make no mistake about depending on who you meet abuses and violence are being carried out by men and women. The condition on the green card gives some the petitioner's spouse a lot of guts and power to misbehave and take an undue advantage of their alien spouse. I have been told by my spouse that the laws in U.S favors women more that men.Whatever the woman says goes whether a woman is telling the truth or a lie.


It is certainly the case that there are women abusers just as there are men. Sadly though, society as a whole tends to take less seriously tales of abuse of men by women, and USCIS are no exception to that. Evidence is the key, and the more solid the evidence of abuse in support of your self-petition the better.

QUOTE (dudu2black @ Jun 17 2008, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How do i get a good lawyer with an affordable fee to file my waiver?


There's no easy answer to that because all lawyers are different. You don't, however, need to limit your selection of immigration attorneys to those in your locality since immigration law is federal, thus doesn't vary around the country. Your family law attorney does need to be local however, since each State has it's own rules about separations, divorce and child custody.

There is a good rough guide to finding a suitable attorney at http://www.visalaw.c...5/12mar502.html In itself this is the site of a highly respected immigration law firm, but the guidance is valid even so.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-18 08:45:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
QUOTE (diadromous mermaid @ Jun 17 2008, 06:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, I believe an I-751 with "d" marked requires a divorce decree.


Indeed, which is why I said "...instead of checking 'a' and filing together, you would check 'd' (if divorced or the marriage otherwise terminated)...." It might have been better if I had phrased that as if divorced or the marriage annulled which would be in line with the phrasing on the form itself.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-18 08:39:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
QUOTE (cherr1980 @ Jun 17 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Right now I can tell you, that depending on your state...is better to start with the Family Law lawyer since you will need to fix that first to move over the other one.


One has to be very careful here, because if there is plenty of time, getting the family law issues sorted (or significantly under way) is obviously a good thing to do from a practical perspective, but if the 2 year conditional status is nearly expired, it's crucial that the I-751 is filed in time since status lapses automatically on the expiry of the 2 year green card unless an I-751 has been filed. And it can be very difficult, time consuming and expensive to recover that status if it has been lost this way.

It's also important that the immigration and family law attorneys work together, because the way the divorce case is handled and the materials it generates can have an effect on evaluation of the I-751 in self-petitioning cases. It could be hard to claim abuse in an I-751 if there is nothing but sweetness and light reflected in the family law case!

The USCIS is aware that there are sometimes issues in marriage cases meaning the spouses are uncooperative, so it's not unusual to find a self-petitioned I-751 where there are outstanding family law matters left to resolve.

Edited by Andy, 17 June 2008 - 03:56 PM.

AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-17 15:54:00
Removing Conditions on Residency General Discussionwaiver
If you are at the stage where you are a conditional permanent resident, and now need to file an I-751 to remove conditional status, then you can file the I-751 on your own, without requiring your wife to sign. In Part 2 (basis for petition) on the form, instead of checking 'a' and filing together, you would check 'd' (if divorced or the marriage otherwise terminated) or whichever of 'e' or 'g' is most applicable. These options are, in effect, your application for waiver of the joint filing requirement on the basis of having been subject to cruelty or violence or if claiming that removal from the country would create great hardship.

It would be wise in this situation to discuss the finer details of your case with a good immigration attorney, because much can depend on the small details, and the choice of which of the waiver types ('e' or 'g') you pick. For example, claiming cruelty and violence would usually require some evidential support of specific incidents or common knowledge of conditions in your home to which others could testify and provide evidence to support. It would also be a slightly higher bar to meet since it is typically women who suffer this rather than men, and while the USCIS should not discriminate, individual attitudes amongst officers and their perception of the potential for abuse of men by women may still play a part. On the other hand, if one or two of your children are US citizens, then you may be in a stronger position to argue hardship if you were forced to leave. A good immigration lawyer will be able to advise which is the stronger option to follow, and what evidential support you should look to put together in support of your I-751.

You do not need to be divorced to self-petition, neither do you need to wait until the 3 month window immediately prior to the end of your 2 conditional status period. You will however need evidence to support your waiver.

Edited by Andy, 17 June 2008 - 03:36 PM.

AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2008-06-17 15:35:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reportsthis is unfair

Isn't that correct?


No, it's not correct.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 12:51:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresquestionable prior work experience?

If she was an exotic dancer would that be considered a CIMT? Just out of curiosity. Im wondering if the embassy would view this occupation in the same light.


One of the problems here is that the entire notion of 'moral turpitude' is so loosely defined that much depends on how the issues is viewed by the individual, rather than by the specifics involved in a case. As such, the line between what is and isn't likely to be considered in those terms varies from location to location, and as a result it's far less likely that such would be judged to have crossed that line in (for example) Thailand, where sex work is a far more prolific and unremarkable industry, than, (for example) in the UK.

It's not the job itself that counts of course, so much as what the job involves - and to some extent the degree to which the person undertook that work voluntarily or by coercion or necessity. Consular officials have considerable discretion in how they view the matter, and do so on a case-by-case basis. That's why it works far better to be honest and explain the circumstances, because that way the context makes it possible for the adjudicator to approve the application despite the job history.

Incidentally, a serious problem would also occur if the work was not openly declared but became apparent during the interview, because not only would the adjudicator have the question of moral turpitude to consider, plus the possibility of judging the omission to have been a deliberate attempt to obscure a material fact, but even assuming a decision to let the application go forward, there would be the question of whether the petition indicated the petitioner knew of this work. If not, then the probability would be that the consular officer would then refer the case back to the USCIS for review since the employment history would be expected to impact the petitioner's choice to continue or not.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-29 09:12:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresquestionable prior work experience?

And may be you are not american but you do not sound as an eastern european too....


What I 'sound like' to you seems more like racial stereotyping than anything else to me, and it doesn't have any bearing on this discussion. Since you don't know anything about me, it's not really possible for you to make a cogent judgement.

Ultimately, the US immigration system functions in the framework of American culture and law however, so whomever anyone is, the one consistent factor is having to pass through this mechanism, as constructed by American lawmakers and operated by American civil servants.

There are certainly people who are in the US unlawfully one way or another - an unknown number of million of them to be somewhat vaguely precise - but that's hardly a good argument for adding to the number or recommendation for a good way of life! Nor does that fact mitigate in any way what are the rules and laws governing the legal immigration process.

By the way, in doing casework, I do put myself in other people's shoes every day. I wouldn't do it if I were not prepared to do so. I have learnt (and I can tell you that it's true) that a very conservative attitude to the US immigration system is the best way to avoid problems when dealing with it. It's not 'american' to take that approach, it's what works for the people on behalf of whom I work.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 15:20:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresquestionable prior work experience?

I do not think though that you would understand me and I sure understand you but i cannot accept your point- you are typical american and I am typical eastern european...we do not speak the same language...
we have grown up trying to find ways around things that we do not like or do not wanna do the way they were supposed to be done. and in america almost everyone does things exactly as they are supposed to - i guess that is the difference.it would definetely be hard adaptation for me in this sense.
But are you saying that you would not lie if you were sure they would not give you a visa?


Firstly, I am not a 'typical american', whatever that is. Not even an American in the first instance in fact. Secondly, while I see that you have just filed your I-129F (and best wishes, good luck and I hope you are processed and approved quickly - sincerely) I have been involved in US immigration casework for almost 8 years now, and if I had a dollar for every case where those involved has said 'I wish I'd known then what I do now', or some such, I'd be rather rich by now.

I understand you perfectly well, and I understand the cultural background of which you speak perfectly well too. The problem is that when coming to the US, a certain amount if adapting to 'the american way' is inevitable, even if it takes time for it to happen. Unfortunately where immigration is concerned, adapting to the needs and mechanisms of the system is crucially important at the outset. It's not that cheats and fraudsters don't get through the system because they do, but typically the ones that do so plan it and understand the systems they are working through far better than the usual applicant, who often in all innocence, get caught. And even if they didn't, it means that every day for the rest of the time the immigrant was in the US, they would have to wonder if today was the day something in their case comes to light that could render them liable to deportation. Given that in an average K-1 case, from date of I-129F filing until Permanent Resident status is approved can be something like 5 years and there are 4 major adjudication in that period of time, all of which involve background checks which are becoming more organized as time passes, the significant risk of being caught out doesn't go away for a long time - and that's without additional consideration given to possibly seeking US Citizenship too, and the impact such a thing could have on that.

Would I lie if I knew I'd be denied? To be honest, I'd be tempted but in the end no, I wouldn't. But then I know the system and I know the waivers and the discretionary powers so I don't have the same view of the procedure you might.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 14:39:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresquestionable prior work experience?

Yes the couple would be in some difficulty if they ever found out.....


Consular officials are not just trained to look for any and all signs of irregularities and indications that beneficiaries are not telling the truth, but they get to practice that art every single working day, hundreds and hundreds of times. They know what to look for and they know what signs mean what things. They aren't policemen because unlike policemen, consular staffers only do one thing, over and over again and they get very good at doing it.

The problem is, aside from the lie it would be necessary to tell and then support by further lies during any questioning and by documentary evidence if it is demanded, that on OUR side of the consul desk, being interviewed, we have no idea WHAT information the consulate has access to. Certainly there is much more than merely police certificates. One can either assume they know nothing and can thus not detect the lie if carefully obscured, or that they MIGHT know something, in which case the lie is dangerous. Either way, if the beneficiary goes to interview and exhibits any of the tell-tale signs the officials are trained to spot, there is a problem.

And since you admit you wouldn't take this risk, it seems odd that you'd offer it as a serious contention for anyone else to follow! It's easy to suggest such a fraud if it's someone else who faces the consequence if they get caught. My purpose is to explain to the original poster here how they could get caught if they try.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 14:08:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresquestionable prior work experience?

Well I think if the couple decides to do that they would be very careful not to provide contradicting evidence.
I agree with you that it is not recommended but if they think they might not get the visa otherwise...
And I seriously do not believe in the allseeing and allknowing myth about immigration officers and procedures.
But it is to their discression anyway...


So you say that the couple should be careful in conspiring to commit immigration fraud. Given that the DS-230 the beneficiary signs for the visa interview contains the line "WARNING: Any false statement or concealment of a material fact may result in your permanent exclusion from the United States" at the top and on page two asks for details of employment (including job title) for the last 10 years, and since the whole object of concealing that job is to improve the chances of getting the visa, knowing that with the correct details the chances are reduced, I'd say the couple would be in some difficulty if they were to follow your advice.

And seriously, what you believe or don't about the information US immigration officials may have access to, would you risk your own future on guessing you were right? Would you guess employers are never checked and records never sought? Would you assume no police record or name check hit? Would you rely on no irregularities showing in any of the background paperwork? Would you expect no questions about irregularities? Would you assume that consular officials conducting interviews are not trained, and generally very expert, at spotting when they are not being told the truth or when there's something in the paperwork that doesn't add up? What would you do, if you'd conspired to cover up this sort of detail and the consular officer asked you, on oath remember, what you were doing during that period left blank or marked as unemployed - particularly if you don't have 100% certainty that they didn't have evidence you were not telling the truth?

The fact is that declaring that job and explaining it is FAR more likely to result in an approval, than trying to cover it up and being caught.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 13:27:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresquestionable prior work experience?

Just wondering...
How would they know about the job if she says unemployed?
Can they check it?How?
For example I know about a lot of people in Bulgaria who went on an interview withut listing all their previous employers (not K1, J1 visa interview though) and nothing happened.
Do u think they would investigate the employers?


No they don't investigate employers - at least not as such - but what you are suggesting is that the beneficiary lies, with deliberate intent to mislead the consular official into granting a visa that might otherwise be denied if the truth were not obscured, meaning that if a visa is granted on that basis and then for any reason the true information becomes known, any immigrant status in the US is subsequently at risk, even years into the future. That's not an entirely reasoned notion, particularly since it is not known exactly what data may be available to the US, or even what other information provided by the couple themselves might contradict the statement.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 12:48:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresquestionable prior work experience?
I can't believe it's being suggested that the beneficiary attempt to mask the nature of the job when all it would take is for her to be asked 'exactly what did this entail' or for any record of the actual substance of the job to surface during processing. Given that sex workers are at risk of being found ineligible on the grounds of moral turpitude, any hint that she has tried to obscure the facts is easily taken to be an omission of a material fact. Being denied a visa on those grounds is far harder to overcome than on moral turpitude.

Honesty and forthrightness may not be the easiest course to consider in this situation, but it is far safer to do so when the system is geared towards discovering these kind of details in a beneficiary's background.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 11:13:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresVWP Enrty Denial
It should always be noted that since US immigration rules require that every person seeking to enter the US to visit are assumed to be intent on remaining, it is the responsibility of the individual to be able to demonstrate otherwise is requested. Patterns of previous visits which show longer periods or repeated periods of stay in the US previously, and thus less time in the UK tend to make immigration officials suspicious about exactly where the individuals main ties are to. In the event further visits are planned or intended, it is always wise to have some evidence of value to help show that even if a lot of time has been spent in the US previously, there strong remaining ties to the home country. A letter from personnel at work confirming your vacation dates is a great piece of evidence to have, demonstrating as it does that you have employment which is on-going and what your return date would be. A mortgage payment book showing up to date monthly payments is also helpful.

However, if by action or implication there appears any risk that you will not leave or intend not to, denial is automatic.

It's also not surprising to hear reports of 'bad attitude' at Dublin - those who get denied entry and not usually minded to be full of praise for the choice or treatment, and may well not have been adequately prepared to demonstrate their non-immigrant intent and thus received less than pleasing handling by officials.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-29 12:47:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresQuestion about evidence of in person meeting

I did the same, but this question perplexes me still, how do you "prove" to someone else that you met another person. Passport stamps, boarding passes, hotel receipts only show you were at a particular place at a particular time, but nothing in there shows proof of meeting anybody in particular (except maybe customs officials, airline officials, or hotel workers). I think pictures are better proof (assuming we say *nothing* about PhotoShop), but unless you are holding up a newspaper or something giving the date, how is that proof that the meeting happened in the last two years? I passed this question around my office, no-one has yet to come up with definitive proof, everything seems to be just circumstantial evidence. I think a better form of proof would be an eyewitness under oath (who would lie to the USCIS?), but haven't come-up with a good way yet to mail one into the USCIS :huh:


It's too easy to slip into the notion of 'proof', which of course is impossible. You can't prove an event happened, even if there are witnesses to it! All you can do is collect 'evidence', which when taken together builds a picture that shows it is more probable than not that the meeting took place in the time required. It helps to think of evidence like a jigsaw, where every piece adds to the picture until it's complete. Provide what adds to the picture, and don't provide what doesn't.

Don't take this too casually though, because otherwise you risk getting an RFE. Consider what evidence is more solid and what is weaker. Things that cannot be tampered with, such as airline boarding passes with name, date and flight details are telling because they can't be faked and can be verified with airlines, while letters or emails can be faked and are therefore of lesser value. That doesn't mean NO value, just less telling.

Edited by Andy, 29 March 2007 - 08:25 AM.

AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-29 08:22:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresQuestion about evidence of in person meeting

When you go to the interveiw, always take originals, never copies.


Right. But take copies too. In most instances they'll want to originals to verify authenticity, and copies to keep for the file.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 14:10:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresQuestion about evidence of in person meeting
Nothing wrong or problematic about the fact she had a prior K-1 and it was while in that status that you met. She can expect some questions on the subject during consular interview to ensure that she is not 'visa seeking' and does, in fact, have a genuine relationship with you, but on that front, that's all.

As to evidence - photos are import, but then like anything else they don't tell the whole story, such as, when exactly were they taken. You need to consider evidence in the light of the picture you want to paint - that you not only did meet, but that it was in the last two years. That's why such things as boarding passes and copies of her passport stamp would be useful, because those are dated and unequivocal, as would be any hotel bill or receipt in her name from the period of stay, or any other such document as car hire agreement etc.

There is absolutely no requirement that you travel to her country, nor any penalty or problem in processing a case that is consequent on you not doing so. It's entirely your choice if you wish to make that journey and, as one contributor said, meet her in her own surroundings in order to facilitate getting to know her as best as possible.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-28 11:23:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresNeed Your Opinion, Pls

Obtaining a nonimmigrant visa for travel while the K1 is in process is not the same thing as being admitted to the US for a visit. I'm sure many K-1 beneficiaries do travel successfully to the US while the case is pending but a very small number of those needed to apply for and be approved for a visa. Among those, their Country of residence was a major factor.

I agree that compelling reasons to return home CAN trump already declared immigrant intent but the chances are slim. Depending on the country, the attempt to do so is often viewed quite differently. For instance, it doesn't work at all from China.


Well, yes they are - at least in terms of the principles that apply regarding the presumption of immigrant intent and the evidential standards required to overcome that presumption. The same rules of ineligibility apply too, and are applied in the same way.

The difference is a telling one - that of course the first is judged by the DoS and the other by the DHS. The DHS apply them in a reasonably coherent and uniform way (though not independently of personal judgments), while the DoS apply them based on a uniform set of rules which are applied with varying emphasis from one post to another, largely dependent on local issues, or the perception of local issues held by consular staff. Hence you see variations is success rates for non-immigrant applications between consular offices around the world, just as you see patterns of denial of admission that tend to reflect the same national patterns.

However, the principle remains. The law requires DHS and DoS staff to assume immigrant intent unless sufficiently demonstrated otherwise. It's in the definition of 'sufficient' that the variations lie.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-30 14:43:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresNeed Your Opinion, Pls

I'm sure this varies by country but ties to home are trumped by immigrant intent. Filing of an I-129F for a K1 visa is prima facia evidence of immigrant intent.


Actually it works the other way around - ties to home trump the mandated belief that immigrant intent exists if the evidence presented of those ties is sufficient enough. If not, the presumption of immigrant intent remains and the visa must then be denied.

The filing of an I-129F is indeed evidence of immigrant intent, but that doesn't prevent a non-immigrant visa being approved if the applicant can show that on that visit, or any subsequent one during which the visa may remain valid, the intention is to leave the country before the date required. If that were not the case, no-one with a pending K-1 case could expect entry to the US for a visit, and clearly many K-1 beneficiaries do travel successfully to the US while the case is pending - sometimes even while their K-1 visa applications are in process at the consulate.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-30 11:55:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresNeed Your Opinion, Pls

It's also important, I believe, to have a well defined purpose for the trip, make that purpose clear, and if possible have evidence of that purpose.



Yes indeed, thank you for adding that. I wasn't so much concerned here about the probability of approval/denial and how to affect it so much as the contention that making the application at all was a bad thing or likely to create difficulties for the K-1 process to come.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-30 11:49:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresNeed Your Opinion, Pls

Your fiance can definitely try for a tourist visa, but in Turkey, they are VERY VERY hard to get. Also, remember that if he does get denied, he'll have some explaining to do when it comes for the K-1 interview. Seriously, they'll say flat out "why were you trying to go to the US when you had a visa in process, couldn't you wait?" I know this from some VJers that told me their experiences.

I know that people here will tell you its ok to travel while the K-1 is being processed, and I think that's more true for countries with waivers that don't need visa's to get into the US.


It's true in almost all circumstances, not just for those able to use the VWP.

It's important to remember that tourist visas are processed by non-immigrant sections on consulates, while K-1 visas are processed by immigrant sections. That's not just a semantic issue, it's a structural one based on the purpose of the visa. As such, applying for and even being denied a B visa does not have any real bearing on an application for, and approval of, a K-1.

It is important to declare that a K-1 process is underway when making the application, and it's possible that as a result the consulate will have heightened suspicion that the applicant has immigrant intent, but if sufficient evidence of continuing ties to the home country are presented, the chances of getting the B visa are pretty good. If it IS denied, then during the K-1 application the denial of the B visa must be declared, but it would raise very few eyebrows since by the nature of the K-1 it is clear that the applicant has reasons to have wanted to visit the US, and since the K-1 is only issued to an applicant if their immigrant intent is clear, the denial of a B visa has no impact unless it was the result of the applicant being found ineligible for US entry for any of the same reasons that would apply to immigrant applications. There would be a question or two likely, just to ensure there are no issues outstanding and because it'll show up on the name check as a hit, but nothing problematic unless there was an indication of an attempt to hide the fact that the visa application and denial had taken place.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-03-30 10:12:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresstudent visa rejection
This is an issue that seems pretty simple on the surface, but where there are a few potential pitfalls, depending on precise details of the situation.

For example, while it's easy to say that her intent was to enter the US as a student to study, if the relationship with you pre-existed that application and she mentioned that fact, it would add to the sense of her intent being to enter the US and remain - quite possibly enough to cause a denial of that visa. It could also impact the K-1 visa application since it is possible (not certain by any means, but possible) that the previous visa application, coupled with the subsequent K-1 process could be seen by the consular officer as her seeking a visa to live in the US rather seeking one to marry you.

Much depends on the fine details of what was in the previous application, what she said and why she was denied.

In the broad sense, and leaving aside those questions, there is no real problem with having a previous non-immigrant visa denied (if it's on the basis of insufficient ties to the home country as opposed to the other forms of ineligibility) in the context of a subsequent K-1 application. There would almost inevitably be details of the prior visa application available to the consulate so it must be declared and would likely cause one or two questions during interview, but since a K-1 is issued to those who demonstrate clear immigrant intent, the fact a prior visa may have been denied for that very reason is not an obstacle as long as all the details are openly declared, and there are no other issues not included here.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 15:38:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...

While I agree there could be a problem there also may not be. If questioned, the answers will be very important, as will all other relationship proof.

The OP has given little information. He calls her "a loved one". We've all assumed he means bonafide fiance because he posted in the K1 forum. We tend to proceed on the assumption the relationship is a bonafide one and can be successfully presented as such. I agree that if paternity is questioned, it will add considerable difficulty to convincing a Visa Officer, the relationship is bonafide....


I think the OP has to be taken at face value in his opening question relating to being 'at the start of his visa journey with his loved one', and as such the salient point are those that are of a material importance to the case. There are many such factors in all K-1 cases, all different because of each case-specific set of circumstances, but the existence of a pregnancy is certainly one in this instance, and the circumstances of that pregnancy could (only COULD) play a significant part in the outcome for the reasons described.

It all depends on details, circumstances, documents, paperwork, background, questions, answers - a complex mix of threads that at any time could result in a problem if any one of them goes astray. Handling it the way suggested allows the couple the best chance of controlling each of those threads from the outset and thus risking the least opportunity of things going wrong.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-03 08:24:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...
I think the issue of paternity, of an unborn child, conceived during the period the petitioner and beneficiary have had the relationship, but where there is no evidence of the couple being together would be of some interest in this process to the adjudicator who's task is to specifically determine whether the relationship is genuine or not.

I also think it's important, while people are prepared to bandy all this 'helpful' advice, to realize that it's the USCIS who 'own' this procedure, not the consulate. Thus, while the consulate are responsible for determination of whether the beneficiary is eligible for the K-1 visa, if there is any material fact that hits at the validity of the case - such as any detail that can be seen to question whether the petitioner is in full knowledge of the facts relating to the beneficiary, the case has to go back to the USCIS.

And again, while the petitioner may be able to take legal ownership of the as-yet-unborn child in the eyes of appropriate family law, immigration law has fundamentally different purposes. It is concerned with determination of rather different issues - not the least of which is visa fraud. Many fraudulent immigration cases involve women who are pregnant and who pay US citizens to marry and petition for them, or petition for them and marry for the sole purpose of getting themselves and their child into the US to live. That's why paternity of children is crucial to the case and very likely to be questioned in relation to it. It's not hard to imagine, for example, what impact on the case there would be if the petitioner here was able, at the time, to get his name put on the as-yet-unborn child's birth certificate yet when the case is adjudicated at the consulate it becomes clear the couple were not together at the time of conception. Would no-one here think that would raise an eyebrow in the consulate, given their specific responsibilities in processing a case?

It's very easy, even for legal specialists in other areas, to forget or be unaware of how different immigration law is in it's emphasis and practice than almost every other area of US law, just as it is for those observing the system system to make assumptions and hold beliefs on how it functions and what responsibilities it places on those going through it based on notions of common sense, human decency and other such polite societal criteria.

Thus in this sort of situation it's easy to think, from the standpoint of good law, that the immigration system hasn't any need to know, that the petitioner and beneficiary haven't any need to tell adjudicators or that such details as raised here don't really matter or can be handled at some point if not at the outset. But when the context of immigration law is considered - the principled attempt by Congress to prevent as many immigrants as possible from entering the country and create the tightest framework of narrowest options for doing so, it's not difficult to see that such laxness, privacy and detail really does matter - greatly.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-03 06:42:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...

This situation is pretty nuanced. If that's what a lawyer told you, then perhaps he/she is right - but you might want to cross-check the whole thing with someone who practices in the family law area specifically. You should disclose what you need to disclose, always. But at the same time, you shouldn't disclose what you don't need to, unnecessarily.


It's important to note that this is immigration law, and thusly while there are subtleties to family law that might apply in certain respects, those subtleties are not present in immigration law. As an example, a US citizen claiming a beneficiary's child as his own creates an issue where it would seem there to be very clear evidence of a genuine and on-going relationship - the basis on which a K-1 is adjudicated. If the child is not actually his, evidencing it as such could be seen as misrepresentation of a material fact - given that the parentage of the child goes to the heart of the question of relationship. Not only that, it would serve to disguise the potential that the beneficiary is seeking entry to the US for the sake of entry, not genuinely for marriage, and that therefore there is visa fraud being perpetrated.

Family law is established to interpret and control a completely different area than immigration law - that's why the significance of things are different!

ON EDIT: I would not, personally, want to question the authenticity of good advice from a qualified lawyer on the subject - and it sounds like good advice to me, given that any such claim or representation COULD lead to the petitioner being accused of collusion in visa fraud - a federal offense for which imprisonment is certainly an option for the courts.

Edited by Andy, 02 April 2007 - 03:53 PM.

AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 15:49:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...

Good point and I will take it under advisement.


If she filed a report of the rape, then getting a copy of that would be a good idea because it adds substance that will not only win some sympathy, but also show there to be valid reasons for you to stick by her despite the pregnancy. Don't be misled by suggestions that these sort of things are not anyone's business but yours and your partner's, or that you don't have to tell them what you might not wish to - all details are relevant in an immigration case where the visa will be denied or approved based on clear evidence that you and your partner have a genuine relationship. The consulate will take nothing of a material nature for granted, and an unborn child of a beneficiary seeking entry to live in the US is certainly one of those!

At the outset it isn't necessary however to declare the circumstances, just to give a basic statement along the lines suggested. The explanation may be more critical to provide later, at interview, and you might want to consider the possibility of attending that with her. It's not necessary, but it might be a wise thing to consider. In the meantime, you can talk over what details to declare and what, perhaps need not be. Of course if there was a report filed with the police at the time, best to let the details out anyway, I would say. They would present very little risk to the case and yet be of great potential benefit.

Good luck to you!
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 15:04:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...

Would I simply add this in the cover letter portion of my package to USCIS? Also, I did consult a lawyer on this and he told me not to claim the child as my own as if they find out it is a federal offense and I can be prosecuted so I will not be doing that. I just need to know how to disclose this and where to do it. Thanks again.


No, you certainly don't want to claim it as yours if it isn't - it has to be said that if you were to do that and for some reason the fact came out in interview, it could have a dramatically damaging impact on the case!

What I would do is write a note that explains that your fiancee currently has one child, listed in the petition for whom a K-2 will be sought, and is also pregnant with a child that is not your own. That you are aware of this fact and wish the case to proceed in the knowledge of it, and also state that you will provide a copy of the note to your fiancee for presentation at the consulate at thew appropriate time to confirm the fact. Enclose the note with the petition, and send a copy of it to your partner.

By the way, if the baby was conceived during the time you are claiming to know your fiancee, it would be sensible to explain the circumstances of the conception such that when the case is reviewed at the consulate, they are not left with any reason to wonder why your partner is pregnant with someone else's child. If the attack took place before you met her, it is less important to detail the circumstances of the pregnancy, but it could still be wise to do so.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 14:40:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...

You can always do a letter to the USCIS about the situation but I don't think it will matter until you get to the Medical examination and Embassy interview anyway.


The reason it matters and that it's best for USCIS to know beforehand, is that if a beneficiary turns up at interview pregnant, or with a child that was not declared in the petition, the consulate CAN'T continue processing the case since it's a material factor impacting the validity of he petition. The case must then return to the USCIS, which at best means a delay, and at worst a denial of the petition so the case abruptly ends! It is crucial the USCIS know in advance to avoid this happening, since if they already know the petitioner is aware of the child and wishes to proceed, there is minimal risk of the case being referred back unless there are other suspicious circumstances.

And to the other poster, yes, parentage matters in the immigration system. There is not 'assumption' that the child belongs to the petitioner, and it's reasonable to expect the consulate official conducting the interview would ask. The best way to handle this is to ensure they already know, thus both petitioner and beneficiary are in control of, and fully aware, of the information the consular officer has. Leaving it to chance at interview increases the risk of problems at the interview.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 14:28:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...

The question is should I list the unborn on the I-129F form in the children section? She has one other child and I am told that the father is not on the birth certificate of her first child as well. She obviously has not idea who the father is of the unborn as she was attacked by two people who were not apprehended. My guess is I need to state this either in the cover letter or some other documentation, any thoughts?


You can't petition for an UNBORN child, thus the I-129F should list the present child and you should provide a separate note regarding the pregnancy and your know;ledge of it and the circumstances. In terms of the petition it isn't important and won't really play a part, but it means the USCIS will have that information on file, such that when it surfaces in the consulate, there will already be a record of your knowledge and wish to proceed - thus while your partner will have to expect to be questioned, there should be no risk of processing being suspected pending a review which would be to get your decision on record. When it comes to the visa interview, you should submit a new note restating the same information so that it can be presented to the consular officer if requested.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 14:22:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresFinancee Pregnant...
It's critical that the pregnancy is declared, because it will show up in the medical one way or another. If not declared the consulate would have to return the petition to the USCIS for review, because you would have to be given the opportunity to confirming your knowledge of it and wish to continue or withdraw. If the pregnancy is declared, the circumstances should also be provided such that you can make clear that you are aware of the impending child and wish the case to continue (that being so of course).

The fact that she is pregnant with someone else's baby will raise some questions at the interview (hence the need to divulge the circumstances and preferably be able to provide a copy of the police report) but as long as it is clear you know of the issue and wish to proceed, will not prevent the K-1 being issued.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 14:07:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresHas anyone had this similar situation?

But on the topic of him paying taxes, he had to have either a SS# (which was possible to obtain in some states while on tourist visa, just to get a drivers license, but then people started working under those SS#'s) or an IRS number. You can't pay taxes without them going under a number. Make sure you get more info from him.


The payment of taxes is really not an issue in this situation. The USCIS won't much care one way or another if he paid or not. They will primarily be interested in the basis on which the beneficiary entered the US, and how long the period of overstay. After that, of secondary importance is whether he worked unlawfully, obtained any benefit such as a driver's license and if so, by what means, and whether in the process of any of the above, used fraudulent documents, particularly making any claim to suggest or assert that he was a US citizen. Of rather lesser interest will be the payment of taxes, but then it's possible to get a tax ID number from the IRS even without an SSN, so unless he used a fake or stolen SSN, it won't matter much. If he DID use a fake or stolen SSN, then it just adds to the weight of the problem of overstay, unlawful work and obtaining of drivers license etc.

Given the situation, it's imperative to be honest and provide all the details, Failure to do so would make the case even harder than it is already is any such were subsequently discovered - and with a lengthy period in the US it would be hard for them not to be discoverable. The probability is that a visa will then be denied on the basis of his ineligibility to enter the country. Depending on what other details may exist, that waiver could be relatively simple or very difficult. Waivers of a finding of ineligibility would require the demonstration of hardship caused to US citizen(s) if the denial of entry was sustained. A good immigration attorney is essential - waivers are tough enough to get approved, and a good immigration attorney can make all the difference between being hopeless and getting approval.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-02 14:55:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Proceduresoverstaying visa problems in k1 procces
I think we can all understand your worries, but at the same time, it's not likely that we'd be able to give you better information than you got from a lawyer, assuming you had discussed enough of the specifics of the case for him/her to reach a conclusion.

It's also important to point out to those with an interest in this sort of case that much depends on all the details, thus a broad and simple description is rarely enough to allow a comprehensively 'one-size fits all' sort of answer.

One can only presume in this instance, that since a 2 month overstay on its own would generally not result in a finding of ineligibility, and that is why the lawyer concluded this would not be a problem. However, if there are other complicating factors not disclosed to the lawyer, it may not remain the appropriate answer. That isn't said with any intent to solicit more detail from the OP, just to underline the fact that on the basis of the information given, there should not be a problem, but if there is anything more to the case, there could yet be.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-05 09:58:00
K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & ProceduresK1 and immediate family

I agree. any posters do not present the important details if for no other reason than they have no idea what details may turn out to be important. And my sense is that most VJers don't want to hear about having a discussion of the details with an immigration attorney - some even after a consular officer has hit them upside the head with a 2x4 by refusing their visa application.


I guess my point is that there are only two ways of fairly and 'properly' handling the sort of question we get here (meaning VJ as a whole, not just the K-1 area). We can either make the assumption that there are details not spoken and in the light of our knowledge that even small details can be wholly significant in an otherwise apparently simple case, almost inevitably recommend the poster seek professional help (which has been suggested before of course), OR take the poster at face value and address the issue as specifically described in as far as it can reasonably be addressed in that way.

The question being asked in this thread, for example, is actually a very simple and generic one, not much related to the specifics other than the fiancee's relatives, unlawfully present. So it seems to me quite reasonable to address that broad question with the broadest of answers to underpin the basic principles upon which such a situation is adjudicated. It may not be entirely wise to make the assumption that over and above that, the OP is likely sensible enough to realize that more detail responses addressing his specifics would at least require more detailed information to be given, let alone that since there are relatives unlawfully in the US that a good immigration lawyer would be a wise investment, but I do assume that when I consider the replies I provide. Particularly since, as we all know, it can help greatly when engaging in consultation with an attorney, to have at least a grounding in the issues on which to hold that conversation and to understand and evaluate the advice then given.
AndyNot TellingUnited Kingdom2007-04-04 15:51:00