biggish data

even if you have had 3 years of an internet relationship that your relationship can only go so far. There is a huge difference between talkign to someone on the phone and living with them, sharing a room, going places together, etc.
Not everyone here chooses to shack up with our SO's before marriage to 'test drive them'

Hmmm, so the spectrum is:

Chaste internet relationship +++++++++++OR+++++++++++Sex orgy from Day One

There are relationships that fall somewhere in between, i.e. people who actually date in person without jumping in the sack. You are the 2nd or 3rd poster to use this example as if anyone not having an internet love affair has immediately started humping the leg of anyone they see In Real Life. Weird!

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-10-26 23:12:00

My husband is a network admin. When we met he was working at a net cafe right across the street from his home. He was bored so he decided to go into a chatroom to waste some time. I've been in this and a couple other net cafes in Egypt. I saw a few young guys chatting on Yahoo but they were chatting in Arabic. I also saw some girls online too. I never saw anyone primping for the cam or practicing "lines" to use on women. Of course I didn't spend entire days in there so who knows what went on when I wasn't there. The funny thing was that since Mohamed lived directly across the street from this place I could hear the Yahoo dings and other noises from the bedroom.

I spent a lot of time in cyber cafes over 3 years and in several different cities in Morocco. I also speak both Darija and Berber so I was able to hear what was said between men. Some cafes are actually known for being "chat" places. I also talked to many many Moroccan men in my English classes (boh small town and Rabatis) about this -- they were the ones coming to me with love poetry to translate or asking what certain line meant so they could use them on their Western girlfriends. They also were very frank about why they were finding these women.

Look, online relationships can work fine I am sure. More power to you if you can go that route and make it work. My assertion about this new trend in Morocco does not negate the success stories.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-10-26 16:11:00

Meeting online does carry a certain stigma, even as the practice grows. My husband, whom I met online, is a very simple, open guy and a terrible liar. What you see is what you get, and he says exactly what he feels, good or bad. I've heard it all straight from the horse's mouth. I've watched him change from a naive kid of 26 into a mature man of 32, mostly on cam. I know how he thinks and reacts to things because for the most part, all we have between us are words, sweet and sour, to shape our feelings. When we fight like hellcats, there is no make up sex. When we feel passionate, there are no hearts and flowers. It's all virtual. Online, it's far more difficult to mask your motives than many may believe; the contradictions are in writing. But, then, I'm an analytical type who doesn't let much slide by.

In the US, the norm is dating and physical intimacy soon after meeting, leading to a certain intensity and escalation of feelings that may not jibe with the facts. So, I'm not surprised that alterior motives are attributed to men whose attention can be kept by women who engage them for months or years without getting any real sexual satisfaction out of it. It's not "normal" by western standards. But, you do get to know someone from the inside out this way because it's not their physical closeness that provides the allure for you, it's something more intangible that maintains the attraction.

Thing is, that "certain intensity and escalation of feeling" that comes with physical proximity (whether that involves actual sex or not) for many of us is the "facts." Tangible atraction is mingled with intangible attraction. It is not something to mislead, but the true expression of attraction becoming something more intense, deeper and more substantial. For me, this cannot be had over the internet. It all goes together for me -- the words and the touches, the trial and error of togetherness. The awkward silences or overwhelming physical sensastions. That is me. I am starting to understand that other people can get all they need from just words, at least in the beginning. This is something like a "literary romance" - a concept I used to hold dear, no sexual involvement, etc. But for me, I just cannot sustain this naturally.

Also, you talk about men whose attention can be kept from women "without getting any real sexual satisfaction" for months, years, etc. While this may be true in your case, don't be naive enough to think this is normal. Those men are getting sexual satisfaction (if we are talking about Morocco) elsewhere, believe me. Yes, it is not "normal" by Western standards, but it is not "normal" but any standards! Let's admit that internet dating is a novel concept and a new phenomenon - and I think worthy of long-term study. I am, frankly, amazed by it.

I also don't agree that you are getting just facts from an internet relationship -- words that represent the "true story." Words can be invented just a easily as anything else, maybe more so. Those few thousand miles sure do put a nice buffer between Romeo and Juliet. I am not saying this is the case with you, szsz, just that I don't think it is as simple as what you presented above.

However, I know it can work - I have seen it work, and I am sure it will work again. I just cannot see it ever working for me. Like Jenn said, for those of us who haven't experienced it, it is hard to imagine. And, I still cannot forget the sheer number of Moroccan men I saw in cyber cafes practicing their love poems, primping for the web cams and then trying to pick me up after it was all over.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-10-26 12:37:00

I think it all the time -- not just here on VJ, but with the Western women I met in Morocco who hurridedly got married (or met over the internet) their Moroccan men. At first, I feigned approval (when asked), now I just tell it like it is.

What raises my doubt here (on VJ) are women that are constantly talking about how much in love they are as if they are trying to convince themselves of it. Also weird are people discussing relationship problems that seem to show that they don't really know their SO's (these are the kinds of things I expect to hear from first and second dates, not people who are betrothed). At times, these stories read like a script and I can almost predict the ending. Other times, everyone is surprised with what is a legitimate relationship.

I would tell someone I knew really well if she asked me - but I can't step in with someone I don't know -- and I don't consider internet talking "knowing."

Just my 2 dirhams

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-10-25 16:25:00

Marrakech

I think most people warn against it not because of the juice but because of the glasses that it comes in. You don't know what they are washed in (could be a bucket behind the stall) or how many people used it. But I guess the same goes for any restaurant or cafe you would go in!

That's true... I have a pretty weak stomach and it didn't bother me. Bring your own glass!

I always brought a big Sprite bottle and asked them to fill it up. 60 cents for a bottle full o' goodness and vitamins -- that is why I love Morocco. Then 3 or dirhams for a roll of msmen with cream cheese spread on it (or honey).

Really drooling now.

I should put the apartent in my name?? Good to know as I always send the husband in to bargain alone, minus the American wife, and I assumed apartment renting would be the same. Prices mysteriously jump when I walk in the room.

We are married and have piles of papers to prove it. We were married in the US so our marriage cert is in English. When a hotel in Algeria wouldn't accept this we broke down and did all the paperwork to get the Algerian papers. So, English, French, Arabic, take your pic. Swimming in paperwork.

Amanda, what guide book do you write for? I have long thought we should all be writing guidebooks. Very glad that someone is! Now, why aren't we all running import/export businesses? (Can you tell I have spent the past week brainstorming about how to make a living living in N Africa?)

My tourist plug of the day: Last July we stayed at this riad (http://www.riadmimou...m/En/index2.htm) and really liked it. Nothing too fancy, but charming and comfortable. I am trying to book it for our first two weeks this time as a base to use while we look for an apartment to rent. Plus, the guys who run it are really helpful and can probably point us in the right direction.

I am really glad to have everyone's neighborhood suggestions as the only ones I saw when last we were there were the Medina and Gueliz.

Thanks all!

I write for Fodor's -- look for the new Morocco edition coming in January (*shameless plug mode off*)

I second the brainstorming thing -- I think there are a lot of opportunities there and things are still relatively cheap (though those riads are getting snapped up like crazy -- and expensive).

I think you are right to have your husband do the bargaining at first -- and you can wait behind a corner or at a cafe! Then, once you have a quote, join him and SURPIRSE! no tourist tax for you. I hated that my very presence raised the price of anything 400% but c'est la vie (or "doonit aya" as they say in Berber)... Putting the apartment in his name is no big deal I guess if you are already married. I was thinking maybe you were just engaged. Officials are just more accomodating to foriegners than to their own, which is sad and sick but true.

Good luck!

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-02 20:20:00

Marrakech

OK, this living apart has got to come to an end.

Algeria isn't an option so we have our sights set on Marrakech for three months. We have visited before and do have some friends of friends to talk to about the logistics there. But, with the plethora of Moroccans and their SOs, it seems this board could offer better advice. The list of questions is long, but off the top of my head:

How easy/expensive is it to rent an apartment? Where should we rent? If we are there Jan thru March I am guessing it is a low tourist season and an apartment at a decent price won't be hard to find. Am I fooling myself? I know we can both stay for 90 days visa free. If we want to stay longer can we just hop the border and back or is it a more involved process?

Any answers to those or any general advice very much appreciated!

I haven't read the other replies yet, but I will give you a small overview.

Marrakech has gotten more expensive but it is still cheap by American standards - if you were to live in the douars (neighborhoods) like Douwdiat or Dar Zitoun or even the medina you could find something for 1500-2500 dirhams ($160-$270) a month. A nice set up with good bathroom, roof access and a few bedrooms, etc in a the neighborhoods around Gueliz (the new city, very trendy and modern) is a lot more -- starting at 3000 dirhams and up. However, by our standards, not too bad a price. Eating in Marrkaech is cheap -- of course plentiful souks and groceries, etc. If you want to have a more posh experience you could rent a riad, but those are really expensive (but don't miss checking them out!)

About staying in country. If you plan to stay longer than 3 months, yes you will need to apply for a carte de sejour. I have had friends who just went up to Ceuta or Spain (mainland) for a day and came back (the stamp on your passporte will suffice) and did without the carte and managed to stay in country a year or so. There will be some documents you need to rent an apartment, though - but I think as a foriegner it will be waived. Put the apartment in YOUR name, as an Algerian/Moroccan he might be harrassed for being with you. Also, didn't see if you are married or not but this can affect things. Carry around your marriage cert. when you go in public. Unlike Casa and Rabat, in Marrakech there are scores of "tourist police" who will demand to see it when they see a Western woman and a Moroccan walking around together. This happened to us a few times. If you are not married, I suggest getting a document taht says you are engaged.

That is it for now, I will read what other people wrote.

Can you tell I write for a guidebook? Haha. Anything else, just PM me. Marrakech is like my home.

Amanda

I do realize Marrakech is touristy and more expensive than other towns, but we both love it.
I love Marrakesh too. Hope you find a comfortable place.

I like Marrakech a lot too! (and not just cause Hamid's there!) The time of year you said is perfect for Marrakech! (do NOT go in summer! this is coming from a south texas girl who just spent Halloween in 87 degree weather!) just try to find a place in or near Gueliz, otherwise it's a BEEATCH to find a petit taxi. Trust me!

Oh and don't drink the 2 dh orange juice in jama efna. I've been warned!

and if you're ever in a pickle over there, just PM me and I can see if anyone can help!

Good luck!

Gosh, I LOVE the (now 3 dirham) orange juice in Djmaa El Fnna. LOVE IT. When I am in Kech, I drink it every day, sometimes with grapefruit mixed in.

Drooling now.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-01 12:03:00

Do you spoil him?

Uh, I said that she (the woman I know) said it was ridiculous, not that it is ridiculous for everyone. By the way, I am all for a older man marrying a younger man (see what you wrote below), as long as we are not talking NAMBLA-style.

And, mabrouk 3lik on speaking Darija, woo-boy that is a fun language.

I know several women in their 50s and 60s living with 19-25 year old men in Morocco. One couple is married, the rest are living together or have an "arrangement." She gives him a car, cash, a nice place to live, electronics, etc. He gives her, well.... sexual companionship. It is very very common. It is also common with older Western men and young Moroccan women.

By the way, many of these women know exactly what is going on and do not pretend that it is love. Most of them have no intention of marrying, but several do get swept up in it. I know a professional in her 50's who just decided to marry her 22 year old lover, even though she knew it was ridiculous. She told me that she was happy and didn't care how long it lasted. I know another 50-something British woman who met a 25 year old desert guide and promptly "fell in love." Now she sends him money every week to support his family and even his sister's medical bills. This woman has a "glow" now and is happy. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. But, hey - it makes her happy!

We have a name for this in darija, but it is not very nice so I will refrain.

I'm 53, my husband is 32. Why is it ridiculous when an older woman marries a younger man, but not when an older man marries a younger woman? Are we all either fooling ourselves or ignorant?

I speak daija too.

I still stand by the logic that words are powerful and until we can become sensitive to the use of words we will never learn to communicate effectively. Conflict resolution (be it a disute betwen friends or a international dispute) begins with listening and effective language. I don't call that PC

Words and logic are my work. I am very sensitive to them both. However, because I am, I'm very aware that they are often ineffectively used here and responded to in an emotionally pc manner. That is why there is so much conflict on the threads. Too much pc.

I don't think this is merely an emotional PC response. There is quite a bit of hypocrisy in that within this forum people repeatedly discuss how they are hurt/angered/upset by the (perceived) discrimination their spouses receive and/or the things friends/family/co-workers have said about their relationships. They have no tolerance for other's ineffective or inappropriate use of words, yet throw around equally loaded words and say equally charged things.

I have my own ideas about this, but I have kept them to myself out of a wish to refrain from tiresome fighting everytime I post. Let's just say, I think you have a point.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-10-27 15:27:00

Do you spoil him?

No particular person, just a type that has come up in conversations with my husband and some of his friends. It seems that there are foreign women who shower their Arab men with thousands of dollars and tons of gifts. On the "Doubts" thread, I related the story of a family member whose gf sends him buku bucks and expensive gifts that he uses to entertain other women. She's not the only one who feels a need to do this, and the ones I've heard of are mostly European. I'm just wondering about this practice and how common it is.

I know several women in their 50s and 60s living with 19-25 year old men in Morocco. One couple is married, the rest are living together or have an "arrangement." She gives him a car, cash, a nice place to live, electronics, etc. He gives her, well.... sexual companionship. It is very very common. It is also common with older Western men and young Moroccan women.

By the way, many of these women know exactly what is going on and do not pretend that it is love. Most of them have no intention of marrying, but several do get swept up in it. I know a professional in her 50's who just decided to marry her 22 year old lover, even though she knew it was ridiculous. She told me that she was happy and didn't care how long it lasted. I know another 50-something British woman who met a 25 year old desert guide and promptly "fell in love." Now she sends him money every week to support his family and even his sister's medical bills. This woman has a "glow" now and is happy. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. But, hey - it makes her happy!

We have a name for this in darija, but it is not very nice so I will refrain.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-10-27 15:14:00

HIP Hijab

I would like to ask a weird question.

Does wearing a headscarf make anyone feel less modest? This is the case with me.

I am not a Muslim and I do not wear hijab, but I occasionally wore it in Morocco. I lived in a small village and wearing it was good for blending in (until I was told to take it off because they knew that it wasn't in my culture -- and that I should show my hair. Gasp!) So I really only covered after hammam because of catching cold and that wet hair thing they have in Morocco (wet hair = prostitute).

Funny thing is, that tightness of binding my hair to my head and really showing my white, freckly face - it made me so self-conscious. I have always had long, thick hair and have tended to let it drape over my face a bit -- so it has been like a natural hijab in a way. I know that is kind of bizarre. But I just wondered if anyone has ever felt the same way?

By the way, I am not even remotely in a debate about it -- and no offense was intended by this question.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-02 20:28:00

Lufthansa

Howdy everyone

I have heard great things here and from other people about Lufthansa and I'm thinking that I'll book with them. After looking at their website and trying to figure out how it will be on the flight, I see that the first and business class have screens inset in the seats in front of each passenger with all sorts of entertainment, but I didn't see any mention about us poor economy class flyers. Does anyone have any experience with Lufthansa flying economy class?
Also, if the plane seems somewhat empty (please please please), do you have any advice for trying to get into business or first class after the plane is in flight??
Thanks

Tell them you are pregnant.

That worked with me (of course I really was pregnant). The seats recline into a bed (with massager!)

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-11 12:48:00

Does consulate in Morocco offer DCF?

When I was there Summer 2005, I asked the Consulate about DCF and they informed me that I would have to have a Visa from the Moroccan Consulate here in the States, which would enable me to have the Residency Card for Morocco. Without prior approval for living there 6 months, you have to file for either K-3/CR/IR-1 Stateside....not allowed in Morocco.

Also, Atif has a cousin here in the states who came over originally on the Green Card Lottery, and is now a US Citizen...he married a Moroccan Girl and couldn't file DCF--had to do it from the US.....

Mary K.

I believe this has changed.

Carte de sejour in Morocco only requires paperwork obtained in Morocco (showing residency / job / volunteer work, etc) in Morocco.

I know people who came to marry and get DCF -- they came and lived for a while, got a carte de sejour, got married and then filed DCF. These were internet meetings. Then there are scores of Peace Corps volunteers (like myself) who did it this way too.

I do recommend emailing the consulate (however, their response time for email is HORRIBLE)...

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-12 21:21:00

Does consulate in Morocco offer DCF?

Hi!

I did DCF in Casabalnca. I lived in Morocco for 3 years prior and thus had a carte de sejour (residency) - but I do know of a few people who seem to be doing DCF on less than 6 months residency (it takes 3 months to get a carte). They will still put you through the same rigors and inspection so it helps to have another reason to be in Morocco (some other tie). My opinion is to write them and get specific requirements.

The good news is that it is super fast. It took us one month for the entire process. Getting married might take longer (but I am hearing that if you do it in Rabat it is just a few weeks -- we did it in Beni Mellal, and it took forever).

Good luck!

And, is this the Derek that worked in Rabat last year? If so, I know you!

Amanda

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-12 17:29:00

i just get home from interveiw

Well well well!

Hicham I'm sorry but I will not under any circumstances congratulate you.

I know your intentions, you have made them 100% clear to me- get the Visa and get to the states. If it doesn't happen fast enough with Judy then divorce her and try again a different way. I cannot believe you think people don't see through you. One can read Judy's threads and posts saying that you were divorcing her because the process was taking too long. It's clear what your intentions are and you expect us to congratulate you? Do you know how many times Judy said you are divorcing her if you didn't get approved by x date? I am appalled that you actually had the nerve to come back here and tell us your story. I hope people will learn from couples like you that there are clear warning signs of bad intentions that can't be ignored in the visa process from people like you.

Judy I feel bad for you that you are so desperate to believe these man's words. When someone says "I am divorcing you if I don't get approved soon" doens't that make a light go on upstairs? If he really wanted to be your husband and if he really loved you then he would be patient and you would get through this together with eachother's support.

I seriously hope that you rethink him coming here. There are several people who have said this to you here and I hope you are not blinded by your need of a man in your life. Please think carefully before you proceed with this person. We are looking out for you here and I hope you take our advice and observations into consideration. His intentions are not what you think- he has fooled you.

Good luck to you Judy.

Deeshla- I love you.

Woah! Thanks I love you, too. What did I do?

You made a very clear cut statement about ME/American woman relationships that was right one. LEt me go find it so I can smile again.

http://www.visajourn...mp;#entry571892

I just calls 'em like I sees 'em, my friend.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-17 15:48:00

i just get home from interveiw

Well well well!

Hicham I'm sorry but I will not under any circumstances congratulate you.

I know your intentions, you have made them 100% clear to me- get the Visa and get to the states. If it doesn't happen fast enough with Judy then divorce her and try again a different way. I cannot believe you think people don't see through you. One can read Judy's threads and posts saying that you were divorcing her because the process was taking too long. It's clear what your intentions are and you expect us to congratulate you? Do you know how many times Judy said you are divorcing her if you didn't get approved by x date? I am appalled that you actually had the nerve to come back here and tell us your story. I hope people will learn from couples like you that there are clear warning signs of bad intentions that can't be ignored in the visa process from people like you.

Judy I feel bad for you that you are so desperate to believe these man's words. When someone says "I am divorcing you if I don't get approved soon" doens't that make a light go on upstairs? If he really wanted to be your husband and if he really loved you then he would be patient and you would get through this together with eachother's support.

I seriously hope that you rethink him coming here. There are several people who have said this to you here and I hope you are not blinded by your need of a man in your life. Please think carefully before you proceed with this person. We are looking out for you here and I hope you take our advice and observations into consideration. His intentions are not what you think- he has fooled you.

Good luck to you Judy.

Deeshla- I love you.

Woah! Thanks :blush:

I love you, too. What did I do?

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-17 15:43:00

Christmas

I really love Christmas for the same reason I like Ramadan - family togetherness, good food, celebration and warmth, re-kindled connections, etc. I gain weight during both holidays, btw.

yeah, I'd really like to know who does lose weight during Ramadan? It's not like you're not eating at all. In fact, it's harder for me to keep my regular weight since you're eating late!

Exactly. And all that eating at night. Added to that the basically carb and sugar combo (tasty as it is!) that I ate in Morocco all Ramadan. I usually put on about 5-10 pounds per Ramadan. The anthropologist in me often wonders if part of Ramadan's function is carbo-loading in a population that needs it (agrarian)...

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-18 18:12:00

Christmas

We will celebrate it. Last year, husband dressed up as Santa Claus and passed out the stockings (we were in Morocco with both families, so it was really bizarre - but great).

I really love Christmas for the same reason I like Ramadan - family togetherness, good food, celebration and warmth, re-kindled connections, etc. I gain weight during both holidays, btw. :angry:

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-18 12:51:00

Marriage in Morocco...

Do it in Rabat and devote all your time to it. I agree you can get in done in a month. It took us 3 months, but that was in Beni Mellal and there was lots of bullshit involved. If you do go to a smaller city, be prepared for bribes and waiting and multiple trips of inanity. If you do it in Rabat it should be relatively easy.

Not sure about Casa -- if it is fast or not.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-19 15:48:00

Amazigh peoples had Goddess figures in their religion.

There's a lot of interesting research on this. The Amazigh Queen Kahena was revered, and the older societies were matriarchal. One of the most interesting bits about tamazight is how closely related it is to Hawaiian language. There is a significant amount of word sharing. The mystical bits of the cultures are strikingly similar, too. Makes you wonder how/when these cultures/people were once together and now so far apart.

Wow! Didn't know about that. You have any suggestions for reading about Amazigh origins? There are so many debates about this. I did know there are some similarities with ancient Egyptian languages and Tiffinagh looks similar to the heiroglyphs.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-20 12:34:00

Tattoos are haram according to the Bukhari and Muslim ahadith, which most Sunnis follow.
http://www.islamonli...d=1119503544192
About the Amazigh(Berber) women who tattoo, apparently they used them as a form of protection from the Evil Eye, but since most are Muslims and according to the Sunnah it's forbidden, some of the women use henna instead of ink.

They also used them to beautify the body and denote tribal identification - same reasons we do it here. Most women just use henna on hands and feet. Those old face tattoos are inked with an alfalfa ink and some other inks I am not familiar with.

Berbers are Muslims but the Amazigh culture predates Islam by several thousand years. You can see preIslamic (circular) cemetaries in Morocco. Amazigh peoples had Goddess figures in their religion. There were many differences with Islam. The face tat is just one example, I think, of how some of those early cultural traditions persist (though are disappering) and show how relatively new Islam is to some Amazigh in Morocco. By the way, there are big Amazigh pride areas in the Southeast that claim to not be Muslim and are re-claiming the old ways.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-20 06:07:00

Not just the Berbers had the face tattoos. Abdel's family is Arab but his mother and some of his aunt's had them. The only picture of his mother in the house shows the face tattoos, and the very old aunt that was in our pictures of our engagement ceremony had them. I asked him if he was Berber, or if any of his family was, and he specifically said no, they are all Arab. His whole family is not really Muslim, but still keeps closer to the pre-Islam Arabic traditions. They observe Ramadan, but not in the religious sense, just as a holiday.

As for tattoos and piercings on me - I have two piercings in each ear but rarely wear any earrings. I spend a good bit of my day at work on the phone and earrings can get pretty painful when pressed into the skull for a while.

I have 2 tattoos and Abdel's sisters saw them at the Turkish bath. As I said, they aren't really Muslim, so they didn't care at all. He likes them and doesn't care if I want to get more. He says it's my body, I can do as I please.

That's Berber. Families are not always "out of the closet" Berbers. Face tats on women in Morocco are Amazigh. Can you describe the tattoo? Maybe peezey can identify better, since she has been studying this. The pattern will denote tribal affiliation.

Most of Morocco has Amazigh origins though big-city people will resent admitting it or even know the exact heritage of their families. Amazigh-speaking relatives are usually only a few generations removed, but I am amazed at how many Rabatis I met who do not know the Amazigh word for "peace" or even "hello."

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-19 15:43:00

My husband says they are gross and abnormal j/k

He does say they are both haram, with the exception of piercings in the ears.

Would that also apply to the traditional Berber tatoos that women have? I know its less and less these days and always has been berber culture not Islam. Curious.

Good example of how Amazigh culture in Morocco (Berbers) predate Islam. You never see younger women with face tattoos anymore. Someone needs to get out and document these women before this practice completely disappears. It is considered "haram" but is one of those things that is so pervasive as to be uniquely Moroccan "halal."

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-18 18:17:00

muslim marriage tips

I can't help but be reminded of this reading this thread. Is it really that far off?

Amen to that. I got chills (and not the good kind) reading that first post. Crikes.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-23 01:54:00

Culture VS Islam

First, I want to say thanks for keeping this thread civil. I have really learned a lot from all of your opinions.

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, but I'll still answer. I totally agree. Not only with what you've mentioned here, but my issue with hijab (chador, naqib, burqa) is, of course, that it is something for women only to be covered from head to toe. In Islam, men are to be modest as well, but their faces are not covered, hair isn't completely covered, and I am especially irked when I go to Target and see a woman in full hijab, in all black, swathed in 20 yards of fabric, her mouth covered and her husband walking beside her in jeans & a polo. I have no idea how these choices were made in their household, but it never fails that I have to hold my tongue and not walk over and interview them, because I am seriously curious about it. And it's not just a women's freedom thing to me. I also consider men to be humans with brains, so I find it very demeaning to men to assert that women must be covered in this way, or even just their hair, to not intrigue men. But then someone will argue, well, I cover so only my husband can see my feminine bits....but hair? Again, it's saying that hair is so sexy it cannot be revealed to others. Again, why is a woman's hair different than a man's in a religion that obliges both sexes to be modest?
This answer is for me. I am not speaking on the way anybody else believes on this matter...just myself. ok, now that I have cleared the path...I'll begin.
For myself, I think it is great to cover the hair via hijab and I'll tell you why. We spend so much time trying to fix our hair to look just right so we can feel beautiful ... and for what? So other men can look at us and think we're beautiful? .. For me, that is wrong. I don't want any man to see me and think about me in that way other than my husband. As far as the other "allowed" men .. they are family and are not going to see me in a sexual way so that is not an issue. Hijab is a way of protecting a womans right to just be herself without having to look a certain way or maintain the current style. She can just be herself and spend her time thinking about other things rather than her appearance. NOW... about men having to cover... I believe (again, just me and not saying anybody else feels the same way) men look at each part of a woman in a sexual way .. from hair to shoulders to hips to toes. Women see men in a sexy way as well but not with as much intensity as men see women. (there are always exceptions to each rule...so yeah there are women who see a bicep of a man and about pass out from lust) .... anyway.... men look at things like hair , body type, etc to base their decision on wether they think the woman is attractive or not. If the woman wears hijab, doesn't the man have to get to know the woman on the inside rather than the outside? I think the answer to that is yes and I like the idea of them getting to know me for me and not for my beauty. (again, just my own opinion)

This sounds *verbatim* like what Moroccan men told me all the time about hijab (not all men, just the few that wanted to convince me to wear it, derr!). Was this your opinion before your marriage as well?

I think this is a very narrow way to look at relations between men and women, too Animal Kingdom for me. Women don't always fix their hair for men's benefit -- we do it for ourselves, our self-confidence, our style, to be professional, etc...

A man that is looking at my toes sexually is a couple notches down the IQ totem pole, IMO.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-12-09 14:25:00

Culture VS Islam

I have read the Quran 4 times complete during the Ramadan months. (one year, I didn't finish) At the beginning of Ramadan I make a list of all the suras and cross it off when I complete it. Sometimes I skip around and sometimes I go front to back. Of course I read passages from the Quran all thru the year, but to answer your question, yes I have read it. The sura Yassen is one of my favorites. Mohammeds favorite is the sura Youseff.

What qualifies me to say I am muslim? In May 2002, I said shahada and I believe from that day forward, I am muslim, alhamdulillah. I live my life to please Allah and I practice the 5 pillars of Islam, which are the saying of shahada, the giving of charity, the belief in angels, the preparation for Hajj and daily prayers.

Jackie

Isn't fasting the month of Ramadan a pillar instead of belief in angels?

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-12-08 20:11:00

Culture VS Islam

Can anyone give specific examples of how in a Muslim community religion and culture are not seperate?

How about this for example- the concept in Iran of purdah- sheltering women inside from the view of strangers- existed in Iran long before the coing of Islam to the region. persians merely kept the concept and explained it through Islam. Today it is seem as an Islamic idea.

Or this- female circumcision in North Africa

The same is true of harem=women's quarters which of course comes from haram=frobidden, but generally is the part of the house forbidden to men, but has also, in more recent centuries become seclusion of women, and of course the 18th & 19th century Orientalist paintings and writings have since distorted the word to mean a man with several concumbines.

Dreams of Trespass goes into Fatima Mernissi's childhood household and until the French left Morocco, her family maintained a separated home. You still see it now (not just in Morocco) with gender separation in homes, parties, schools, etc which has certainly become a huge part of Islam, culturally, and in practice.

_Scheherezade Goes West_ by Mernissi also discusses this 'haram' idea in Orientalist art and literature.

Female circumcision is a good example of the culture/religion confusion -- most people in the US seem to think (mistakenly) that this is a Islamic practice.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-12-08 20:03:00

Muslims and pork

Am I the only one here that thinks pork is succulent? Mmm.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-12-15 17:07:00

Muslims and pork

Some anthropologists have a theory that because Semetic people lived in arid, desert areas and moved around a lot in caravans. it wasn't easy to keep pigs because, unlike sheep and goats, they don't herd well. And, their cloven hooves don't allow them to travese the desert without a great deal of difficulty. So, to facilitate the nomadic lifestyle of the majority of the population in those times, pigs were discouraged as a food resource.

This is what I have read as well. It does make sense.

I live in a pig farming area -- pork is a way of life here. It has been an eye opener for my husband to see how much people depend on pork for their living and how pervasive it is here.

In anthropology there is something called the "latent vs. manifest" function - that is, there is always a manifest reason (what is known and culturally accepted and practiced, i.e. pork is forbidden) and a latent function (what results from the practice or what might be accomplished culturally or macroevoluntionarily - i.e. pork does not make sense for a desert people). I am sure it is not that simple, but it seems to start to explain the wildly varying food codes and taboos that exist around the world. There is a book out there by Marvin Harris, wish I could remember the name.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2006-11-24 13:07:00

Honor Killings

You find me a woman who had an abortion and had zero feelings about it, no matter her philosophical stance on the topic, and I'll give you a million bucks.
I don't mean to argue here, but I have a feeling that what your saying actually shows more of why the subjects DO compare well... I think its possible its the same kind of (perceived) desperation that keep both practices going. Its easy to say both practices are disgusting but you can't so easily stop some things. I don't know anything tho...so don't let what I post bother any of you too much.

I disagree with you.

I think a woman has the right to choose whether or not she wants to have an abortion. She has to sign paperwork and pay to have it done. She has the choice. I don't think abortion is disgusting for the most part.

In honor killings a woman is murdered by her own family just like that. She has no say, the family decides to take her life.

What do you mean they involve the same kind of desperation?

I agree with you Sarah but then again I am staunchly pro-choice. Comparing the two is a way of avoiding the issue, I think - a way of diverting attention to the most well-worn and devisive of topics. Nothing changes. No amount of hiding behind cultural relativism takes away the black-and-white wrongness of so-called 'honor killings.'

That some women out there are marrying into this attitude breaks my heart.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-06 21:17:00

Honor Killings

And another thing -

Calling it "honor killing" is a load of ######. It is straight up MURDER. If my husband were into murdering people I think I would shop at a different man-store. Yet somehow this is much much worse because it involves murdering one's own blood.

What we saw more often in Morocco was families beating their daughters/sisters for "shaming" them. It might be illuminating to add that nuance to the poll - Would your hubbys beat up/give a black eye to/break the bones of a sister who was caught with a boyfriend? This was so common as to cause me physical pain every time I thought about it.

I am still horrified that any self-respecting woman could tolerate even a mate who thought that a woman had shamed him by expressing her god-given sexuality.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-04 18:55:00

Honor Killings

Oh my, I'm wondering if some of these votes so far are fakes...

I would hope so- I would hate to think anyone would marry a man who could justify the murder of his own family.

this is what I'm hoping, too, I'm a little freaked by this thread.

Frankly, I am ultra-freaked. Cultural relativism is s**t - this practice is WRONG and is the ultimate expression of woman-hating and fear of women's sexuality. How any of you can even accept this (attitude) in a potential mate is waaaaay beyond me but I guess I have less in common with people that I thought.

Accepting that is like selling your soul, IMO.

Good God.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-04 18:45:00

PREGNANT??????????????

Congrats!

We just had our baby in November, his name is Noor or "The Hybrid" or Captain Mustard-Pants.

The lowdown -- crazy pregnancy of travelling all over Morocco, gave birth in Tennessee (natural delivery, NO MEDS! I thought I was going to die). He was almost 9 pounds.

Oh, and I gained 60 pounds during the pregnancy. (Most of it from Mexican food and calamari.)

So you travelled to Morocco during pregnancy? Any problems? We want to go this summer (in my 2nd trimester), but I was afraid of any complications that might arise (also the money issue but that's another story).

I was living in Morocco when I got pregnant and came back to the states at 6 months pregnant. It was summer and I lived on a fifth floor apartment (no elevator) so it was getting ridiculous. But I had no complications and didn't start really feeling pregnant until month 7.

I say go for it! You have the most energy in your 2nd trimester anyway and they airline restrictions don't usually start ntil week 32 or so. Enjoy Morocco and indulge taste buds (and crazy cravings). I know a good ob/gyn in Rabat if you need an emergency medical contact while you are in Morocco.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-24 12:24:00

PREGNANT??????????????

Congrats!

We just had our baby in November, his name is Noor or "The Hybrid" or Captain Mustard-Pants.

The lowdown -- crazy pregnancy of travelling all over Morocco, gave birth in Tennessee (natural delivery, NO MEDS! I thought I was going to die). He was almost 9 pounds.

Oh, and I gained 60 pounds during the pregnancy. (Most of it from Mexican food and calamari.)

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-23 23:24:00

something to tell

o DRs and RNs any tips for women who want to become pregnant?

Be in optimal health (healthy weight, etc), take folic acid (a good pre-natal vitamin), lots of Omega-3s (eat fish and/or take flax seed oil) and have lots of sex!

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-29 15:45:00

Travel to Morocco

As most of you know my hubby and I will be flying to Morocco in a few weeks. I have a few last min questions for those who have been to Morocco. Thanks!

1. Did you have to get any vaccinations before your trip?

2. What exactly is the weather like this time of year?

3. How long should we give ourselves before our flight to go through security and check-in?

4. Where exactly can I find the new airport security laws?

5. What can I expect when I get to the airport in Casablanca?

6. Do we have to pay any tariffs for any of our items we take to or from Morocco?

7. Am I allowed to bring my videocamera on the plane or do I have to check it? (really don't want to)

8. If I happen to get sick or injured while in Morocco, is there such a thing as travelers insurance? If so, where can I find it and who is the best provider?

Ok that's all I can think of for now. Thank you very much for reading this and hopefully replying.

Janine

1.) No. Nothing is required or needed.

2.) I would have to ask - where are you going in the country? In January and February it is biting ###-numbing cold to the point of wanting-to-die cold. I mean it. If you are going to the south, desert or mountain areas be prepared for extreme cold. If you are going to the coast, well then lucky you! It won't be as bad. I am sure your husband has told you how cold the inside of concrete homes get. There will always be the sun to thaw you out during the day.

3.) 2-3 hours

4.) Not sure about that one, but don't sweat it. Just don't bring any liquids in your carry-on.

5.) Pretty straight-forward. Someone might try to bribe your husband (Moroccan in America = rich person in their eyes) though.

6.) Nope. Just don't take out any dirhams.

7.) You can bring it.

8.) Depending where you are, you can get good, affordable health care in Morococ. Please, whatever you do, do not go to a public clinic (sbitar, dispensaire or centre de sante - I have worked at these places and they are subpar by Western standards). Look on the consular website for a listing of English-speaking doctors. Bring a first aid kit, but know that Moroccan pharmacies will have everything you need.

Good luck!

Amanda

Edited after reading other replies -- IT IS COLD IN MOROCCO. Even if there is an amazing Saharan sun beating down on you during the day, nights will be cold unless you are on the coast. Bring more than a jacekt -- bring a coat and long underwear (omy favorite -- silk long underwear from L.L. Bean).

Those of you saying Morocco is warm this time of year are NUTS.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-23 23:20:00

Travel to Morocco

As most of you know my hubby and I will be flying to Morocco in a few weeks. I have a few last min questions for those who have been to Morocco. Thanks!

1. Did you have to get any vaccinations before your trip?

2. What exactly is the weather like this time of year?

3. How long should we give ourselves before our flight to go through security and check-in?

4. Where exactly can I find the new airport security laws?

5. What can I expect when I get to the airport in Casablanca?

6. Do we have to pay any tariffs for any of our items we take to or from Morocco?

7. Am I allowed to bring my videocamera on the plane or do I have to check it? (really don't want to)

8. If I happen to get sick or injured while in Morocco, is there such a thing as travelers insurance? If so, where can I find it and who is the best provider?

Ok that's all I can think of for now. Thank you very much for reading this and hopefully replying.

Janine

1.) No. Nothing is required or needed.

2.) I would have to ask - where are you going in the country? In January and February it is biting ###-numbing cold to the point of wanting-to-die cold. I mean it. If you are going to the south, desert or mountain areas be prepared for extreme cold. If you are going to the coast, well then lucky you! It won't be as bad. I am sure your husband has told you how cold the inside of concrete homes get. There will always be the sun to thaw you out during the day.

3.) 2-3 hours

4.) Not sure about that one, but don't sweat it. Just don't bring any liquids in your carry-on.

5.) Pretty straight-forward. Someone might try to bribe your husband (Moroccan in America = rich person in their eyes) though.

6.) Nope. Just don't take out any dirhams.

7.) You can bring it.

8.) Depending where you are, you can get good, affordable health care in Morococ. Please, whatever you do, do not go to a public clinic (sbitar, dispensaire or centre de sante - I have worked at these places and they are subpar by Western standards). Look on the consular website for a listing of English-speaking doctors. Bring a first aid kit, but know that Moroccan pharmacies will have everything you need.

Good luck!

Amanda

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-01-23 23:17:00

For or against Shar'ia law?

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on what is sharia is and how it varies from country to country. We usually hear sharia only when it is describing extreme, harsh punishments. In many cases, wordly punishments are being given to crimes when there was no clear cut wordly punishment from the Qur'an, or the punishments are deduced from contradictory ahadith. I think the problem lies in interpretation and implementation.

Morocco has sharia family law, and I think the family law is rather fair.

I agree except for the nicely hidden law about lesser sentences for men killing adulterous wives (crimes of passion). Also, the Mudawanna is not enforced in the bled. But it is a nice try from ole' Malik.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-02-03 16:13:00

Question about SO's race

DH enjoys writing "Amazigh" in the blank next to "other." Let them figure it out! My ob/gyn forms asked for the race/ethnicity of our baby and I had no idea what to write. There is no choice for 1/2 Irish, 1/2 Amazigh on the form! I thnk we made up something.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-02-03 16:07:00

Poll - When you met your SO

I met my husband 3 years ago in my first training week in the Peace Corps. He was a private contractor doing a water project in the village where I was doing my language and technical training. We dated for a while and got engaged after about a year or so. We "lived in sin" after that until we finally got married last summer. It was very anti-climatic! We were best friends from day one.

Deeshla, which stage were you in? Was it the March 2004? I might have met you if your training was in Ouarzazate (can't remember if that was the health or environment sector)

I also met my guy in the Peace Corps about 3 1/2 years ago. I lived with his family temporarily when I moved to my assigned town. He was going to school in Erfoud, so I only saw him a few times. He was immediately smitten, but it took me a while (two years!) to end another relationship and see the truth!

Hi Liz! I was in the maternal and child health stage February 2003 but hen we were evacuated when the war started.

I came back in October 2003 for a mini-stage (I believe I stayed with your stage a bit in Fes and we swore in together - I was the one who did the speech in Tamazight). Finished August 2005.

I remember a Liz. Do you have red hair?

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-02-03 16:18:00

Poll - When you met your SO

I met my husband 3 years ago in my first training week in the Peace Corps. He was a private contractor doing a water project in the village where I was doing my language and technical training. We dated for a while and got engaged after about a year or so. We "lived in sin" after that until we finally got married last summer. It was very anti-climatic! We were best friends from day one.

deeshla

Not Telling

Morocco

2007-02-02 11:12:00