biggish data

immigrant visa denied

Tell Us more about your story. What she was asked at interview?

AMV

Not Telling

Romania

2008-07-23 17:13:00

IR-1 and IR-2

Hi ALL,
My wife and my child case has been complited on July 14, 2008. Since today interview date has not setup yet. Do you know how log does it take to setup a date?
If I submited I-864 to NVC, does my wife need to have at intervew my tax return transcript? Do we need to obtain a new police certificate for interview?
Help, please.

AMV

Not Telling

Romania

2008-07-27 14:05:00

Thanks for your help. I did not submit I-864 to USCIS, I submited to NVC.

AMV

Not Telling

Romania

2008-08-03 22:50:00

When i submited I-864 i did not include Emplyment letter. I just included 2007 IRS tax transcript. They did aprove I-864 and did not send RFE. I think Employment letter is optional. Do i need to worry and give this employment letter to my wife at interview?

AMV

Not Telling

Romania

2008-08-03 19:16:00

Sorry, i made a mistake, in 2005 it was $20774.00

AMV

Not Telling

Romania

2008-08-03 17:30:00

Guys,
My earning was:
2007 - 83K
2006 - 56K
2005 - 22K

Size of family - 3 (Me, wife and 3 year son). Will be a problem with I-864 at interview?

AMV

Not Telling

Romania

2008-08-03 17:01:00

Tax file question

"Another option is to file as single now and amend the return after she arrives."

Pushbrk,
It is very dangerouse to follow your advice. If he/she is married she/he MUST state it. otherwise they will be in bad situation.

They have two opptions: Married filing separatly or Married filing jointly.
If a peson is married but he/she claim himself/herself as a single it will create a lot of problem after ...

AMV

Not Telling

Romania

2007-10-21 16:42:00

May 2008 Filers

I guess that I will start giving my info, as I am a May filer. I got my first NOA1 on May 9. I am an I-129f filer at VSC. Things are looking better now than they have the past 4 years, timewise. I have been dating Ukranian girls, looking for the right one. What a journey. At times I feel like an expert on international travel and immigration. My passport has been stamped more than Paris Hilton's ###. One of my friends is thinking of getting engaged to a girl from Belarus. I travel to Ukraine every 3 months to see my fiancee. We had a wedding ceremony on May 10th for her family. What a party. The vodka flowed heavy. I had to stay straight, not unlike New Years there. Never, ever think that you can out-drink a Ukranian. I have grown tired of all of the travel and look forward to her being stateside. I will still visit 2 or 3 times a year, but I will wake up next to her the when I am stateside too. The embassy in Kiev seems to have their ####### together and if we are lucky and Vermont keeps it up, we could possibly have the interview in August. I have told Julia that it could be Sept. or Oct. I do not want to get her hopes up. Too bad our goverment officials do not work like the ones in Ukraine. A couple hundred Hgrivna and I could have it all done in a week. The price we pay for living here. Here is to good luck for everyone on their journey, and hopefully no speed bumps in the road, especially me.

Poacher

Male

Ukraine

2008-06-04 22:37:00

September filer with the blues.......?

Does anyone here other than me have the September blues.......?
I received my NOA-1 dated Sept. 23, 2011 and have not had a touch in my case. What is going on at the CSC.......?
50 days and nothing reported at all. Is CSC really that far behind.......? Can anyone shed some light on this as to why VSC is pumping out completed I-130's like cookies on an assemly line and CSC is gasping for air. Has anyone else here filed with a date close to mine and have had no action taken on their case yet?

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-11-10 21:02:00

CR-1 and petitioner background checks

My friend, the case you are asking about is a K-1 visa that has IMBRA regulations that must be followed. Your best bet is the CR-1. You receivied some conflicting advice when told to not wait for them (USCIS) to bring it up as if you were trying to hide a material fact, and then told if you are not asked about it do not bring it up.......what gives here? The fact is that the I-130 does not ask that of you, so how are you trying to hide a fact? If you are requested to submit documents adressing this then at that point you should. You will have a problem with a K-1 as that is a direct question on the I-129F form. Bottom line, study and be prepared as CR-1 is your best option.

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-12-27 17:58:00

CR-1 and petitioner background checks

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-12-27 17:55:00

Hello To all my fellow VJ members,
I finally received my NOA 2 as confirmed from my Congresswoman's counsel today.
She called personally to give me the good news.
Proxy marriages are not looked upon as scrupulous in all cases if you follow their
guidelines. I received an RFE due to me forgetting to put my wife's name in as my
current spouse on the G-325a form.......silly me; other than that I had no problem as I submitted all
evidences and the marriage was consumated after the ceremony as required.
Thanks to all of the positive feedback and the negative that routed me to search that much deeper to
put all of this together to achieve this. This could not have come into fruition without the help of
Yahweh my creator. We are finally past the USCIS stage and looking forward to the NVC process.
I have been studying the NVC shortcuts diligently and think all will be well, if not I have a support
system unlike no other here with you guys.
Again, thanks and I bid you all the best.

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2012-04-13 17:43:00

Hey great advice Magical and Anh map. I will focus on sharing details with my wife more in depth and what it takes to prove we have a Bona Fide marriage. I had no problem with getting her a credit card on my account, (I did that over the phone and the cards will be here in 5-10 business days, I hope it will help, it sure cant hurt) but you are absolutely correct about adding her to my bank account, they said she must have a S.S. or Tax ID number to be added on to my accounts. I will focus more on how the CO may perceive us as they have sole discretion over the matter, thanks for bringing this to my attention.
I will talk with her tonight and we will go over this more in detail. Thanks you guys and please keep the replies coming as I will utilize all that can help me in this journey.

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-08-06 19:59:00

Hey you guys I am really appreciative for all the support and replies you have submitted thus far. Marie and Doug thanks for the info for the credit card, I am on that right now and will request a supplementary card for her also form both banks. I am not sure how to approach my primary bank with this, but if you can elaborate a little further it is greatly appreciated. I have my previous boarding passes, car rental agreements, my ring receipts and receipts for items purchased for her family as gifts from me. I will save every bit of documentation between us as I possibly can as evidence to show of our relationship, I will even show receipts from Western Union where I help her as needed. With all this said I thank you all immensely from my heart and hope this can be overcome.
Thanks a bunch Casprd, advice duly noted!!!!!!!

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-08-06 15:33:00

Thanks to all of you for the information and replies. I am not going to file until I have consummated my marriage, and I truly look forward to doing this. Thanks NigeriaorBust, but I will not make the mistake that the lady did that you spoke of. My wifes family is looking forward to meeting me and are planning a "grande festa" for us when I get there.
I have purchased gifts for all and I will keep receipts and will take photos of me giving the gifts. Thanks Sara for the input there. Gervl, it is very difficult to marry in her country due to the length to obtain permission to do this. 45 days to register your "Intent To Marry" another 30-45 days to obtain the license and then a civil ceremony from the municipality that can perform this.......very time consuming. I must work and at most my vacation is 3 weeks.
I understand the "red flags" and people trying to scam the system to get here. Proxy marriage recognition was designed to aid here for our military to bring their spouse and children here, but I see how it has been exploited and used for mal purposes. I only want to conform to the letter of the law and its' requirements. With much anticipation and desire I look forward to consummating my marriage in every sense of the word. My wife's family is very anxious to meet me and are waiting with open arms to welcome me into the family. I will obtain letters (notarized) from the family attesting to their knowledge of our marriage and anything I can give the governing agency to demonstrate the validity of our marriage. I even tried to add her to my bank accounts, but they said without a S.S. Card or Tax ID number they could not permit this. Here is a quote from the FAM MANUAL from the Dept of State:

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual Volume 9 - Visas 9 FAM 40.1 Notes Page 1 of 18
9 FAM 40.1 NOTES
(CT:VISA-1614; 01-07-2011) (Office of Origin: CA/VO/L/R)

9 FAM 40.1 N1.3 Proxy Marriage
9 FAM 40.1 N1.3-1 Consummated
(CT:VISA-1000; 09-03-2008)
For the purpose of issuing an immigrant visa (IV) to a “spouse,” a proxy marriage that has been subsequently consummated is deemed to have been valid as of the date of the proxy ceremony. Proxy marriages consummated prior to the proxy ceremony cannot serves as a basis for the valid marriage for immigration purposes.
9 FAM 40.1 N1.3-2 Unconsummated
(CT:VISA-1165; 03-06-2009)
A proxy marriage, that has not been subsequently consummated, does not create or confer the status of “spouse” for immigration purposes pursuant to INA 101(a)(35). A party to an unconsummated proxy marriage may be processed as a nonimmigrant fiancé(e). A proxy marriage celebrated in a jurisdiction recognizing such marriage is generally considered to be valid, thus, an actual marriage in the United States is not necessary if such alien is admitted to the United States under INA provisions other than as a spouse. (See 9 FAM 41.81 N1.1.)

I only want to do what is correct and follow the guidelines to obtain a CR-1 visa for my wife. I will be diligent in all of my endeavors and will consult with you guys for your help. Thanks a bunch and please continue to reply.......

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-08-06 11:17:00

Thank you for your reply Penguin.
I have only been there once before our marriage, and yes I do have my boarding passes. I met her there while on vacation in November of 2010. We have been in constant contact ever since and decided recently to marry.
Why do proxy marriage visa attempts fail, are they looked upons as a villianous way to enter the US and are scrutinized that much more? Has anyone else here married in this manner and can give me some guidance and/or their experience on this subject....... I am getting confused now, should I wait and show that I have been there several tines before I file?
All replies are welcome, thanks.

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-08-06 08:03:00

Thanks for the info guys, and yes getting married in her home country was my plan, unfortunately I would need at least a 3 month vacation to do this as you must file an intent to marry with the Cartorio there and wait 45 days, then file for a marriage license which takes an additional 30 days, at which point you can then have a civil ceremony to have a lawful marriage. I do not have this kind of time as I am a working man.
I asked the Dept of State about proxy marriages and it is legal after it has been consummated, then and only then is it recognized.
Why I ask is this process so lengthy as it is done regularly by military personnel and it is lawfully recognized by the Dept of State in their own laws?
Is there a forum here that discusses this topic?
Thanks again

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-08-06 00:59:00

Good day to all my fellow VJ members,
I recently married my fiancee by way of a proxy marriage here in the US in the good ole state of Texas, she was not present as the proxy stood for her and all notarized documents giving permission to do so were verified before hand. I am a resident of NC and my wife is a Brazilian National. I have researched and found that these marriages are recognized for immigration as long as they are consummated. I am going to Rio on the 31st of this month to spend some time with my wife and then return to start the CR-1 visa process. I would like to know from all anything that you have experienced that will help me, the average time it took to receive the Consulate interview and what all I will need as far as forms and their preparation to make this process as smooth as possible. She speaks no english, but I can speak Portuguese and I am 18 years older than her. I will go to the interview with her when she receives it to prove the validity of our marriage. All responses are welcome and experiences from Rio Consulate interviewees are greatly appreciated.
Thanks to you all.

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2011-08-05 21:24:00

Interview in Rio - packet 4 and original documents

Hey Journeyer,
Congrats on your interview and I wish you the best and hope you are well prepared.
Can you be kind enough to write a review and give us fellow Brazilian forum members the details of your experience at the interview?
We in the Brazil forum have not had any Consulate reviews for CR-1 Visas in our portal in a long time.
I also am a US citizen married to a Brasilera and we are very curious to know of the recent details about the experience there in the Consulate in Rio.
I plan on attending with my wife as well, so I bid you the best and pray for your wife to obtain the visa that will bring you 2 together.
Tchau.......Rodrique

Rodrique

Male

Brazil

2012-02-15 21:57:00

my 4 year immigration fight to keep my wife

QUOTE (Haole @ Dec 1 2008, 12:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Get your senator involved ASAP.
You got a lot of bad information. For one you can't do a DCF unless YOU establish residence in PI.

You are right, I got bad info from my attorney at the beginning, but I got worse advice from local immigration office.
On our infopass, they told us that there was no need to take this to court before she left because she would be back so soon. After she left, I called immigration and talked to a supervisor who informed me she had every right to a day in court and with all the circumstances we in our case, the judge may have over-turned the decision. It's too late now for thinking about that route.

QUOTE (Boiler @ Dec 1 2008, 02:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You need a lawyer who has a clue, this one should be reported to the local Bar.

As she was never legally married, then the whole K3 would be void, it was based on a false pretext. I guess she might have had a case if she only just found out, but she knew from arrival that this was the case.

So she would never have had any legal presence in the US.

My assumption is that you will need a I 601 waiver for the illegal presence. http://www.visacentral.net/ This is one Lawyer who is highly thought of, Heather Poole is another.

Thanks, I know all about Laurel Scott, she has a very good reputation but can't afford her right now. This is the second time to petition her and it's starting to drain me ( mentally and financially )

QUOTE (TVN @ Dec 1 2008, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know a somewhat similar case like yours in Clearwater Florida. A lady was sponsored from Vietnam to Ohio on a good-faith marriage. They ended up separation shortly after she came since the guy was cheated her. She left Ohio to Clearwater Florida where she met another guy. They fell in love then requested her previous husband to file a divorce. He agreed to sign an official divorce. Technically, her temporary greencard was widthdrawn. She should file a removal for condition on her greencard to get a permanent one. She did not do it. The lady then her later guy then married and lived happily. Her later husband filed a petition to sponsor her. However, somehow, the immigration officer suggested her to go back to Vietnam and re-entered again via legal process that was promised to be taken no longer than 6 months. She naively followed the suggestion and returned to Vietnam. Six months was passed. She got an interview at the Consulate in Saigon. She was denied for a reason that she had a bad record of not returning to Vietnam sooner after she got divorced with her first husband. Her later husband in Clearwater Florida fought very hard involving many lawyers, congressman, senator etc... None of them could succesfully overide the immigration decision. Many lawyers say that they made a big mistake. Don't return to Vietnam no whater what happened. Once, you got out it's very hard to get in. The battle has been more than 2 years now and there is no sign of being end.
Try you best to get congressman, senator, even higher ranked immigration officer. If you can afford for lawyer, go ahead. But be prepared that it will be costly since it will take a lengthy time to get her back here.
The whole US immigration process is suck. I hate it from head to toe. I hope for the change in the near future. Good luck

Thank you for that info, I have heard of cases like mine and not one of them had a good, quick result. I am still hoping for the best but preparing for the worst...

rujan

rujan

Male

Philippines

2008-12-01 22:33:00

my 4 year immigration fight to keep my wife

Hello everyone,
Please tell me how you think the out-come will be on this one..........

09-04 My wife from the Philippines arrived in America on a K-3 visa married to another man ( other than me ).
She arrived in America perfectly legal. When she stepped off the plane to be with her husband, he informed her
that he had something to tell her. He told her that he was, in fact, already married to an American woman who was
having his second child and if she kept her mouth shut, she could stay in America and the 3 of them would have
great life. She called her sister (in America) ( who is a citizen now ) to ask for help. She ended up coming to stay
with her sister to be safe while they figured this out.

11-04 After 2 months of talking to her husband, she realized there was no way he was going to give up his
American wife and she should return to him because he "paid good money for her"
Since I was a friend of her sisters family, I was well aware of everything going on and helped any way I could. I
took her to seek advice from an immigration attorney. The attorney sent the husband a couple letters and the
husband admitted to having the American wife.

03-05 Well, to make a long story short, in the 3 months the attorney was doing his thing, this lady and I fell in
love with each other. I paid the immigration attorney to represent, and guide us.
Our immigration attorney had us hire a divorce attorney for an annulment. With the letters from the husband
admitting his polygamy, we had a pretty sealed case.

06-05 We won the annulment in court ( here in America ). On advice from out immigration attorney ( who knew I
was going to marry this lady ) said she could stay in America and could get her adjustment of status without
having to go back to her home country. ( turned out, this was not the best advice )

08-05 WE GOT MARRIED.

12-05 The attorney filed the I-130

02-06 filed for work authorization card

06-06 received work authorization card

07-06 had interview at local Immigration office, was told everything looked fine but still placed on AP anyhow

( somewhere in this time, we did get her a social security card and learners permit also )

03/07-06/07 applied for and received new work authorization card

03/08-06/08 applied for and received new work authorization card

09-08 received letter from local immigration office stating her I-485 was denied and she has 30 days to voluntarily
depart the country. The reason ( as you may have guessed already ) was she did not stay married to her
original petitioner.

Now is where things get interesting....

2 days AFTER her denial letter, her I-130 was approved.
We had an infopass to get information on what to do next. We were told she MUST go to her home country where we can do DCF and the process would only take 2-4 months. I talked to my congressman and was told the same time frame. My attorney also said the same thing. As bad as this was, we figured we can handle that.

It was not until AFTER she left the country, I was informed that she will most likely be placed on the 10 year ban of no re-entry because she was out-of-status since her annulment. (over 3 years in violation )

Why did they wait so long to tell us this?

Here we thought we were doing everything by the book by having an attorney, and jumping through all their hoops as they requested. Even the lady who gave us the interview said everything looked good for being a "strange circumstance"
and she sad everything was done right on our behalf, but she wanted her supervisor to see the paperwork before making a decision.

As of now, it's been 2 months and our paperwork still has NOT made it to the NVC so the time frame they gave us is really a joke right now. I'm not too worried about that, but I am worried about my wife being placed on a 10 year ban.

Will the consular take in consideration that we thought we did everything legal?.......

I know this is long and thanks for reading my situation.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

rujan

rujan

Male

Philippines

2008-11-30 23:48:00

termonology question

Hello,

My wife is in the Philippines and we have a passport problem.
She went home on a VD and while there had to get her passport switched from her ex-husbands name to mine.
She had the court certified copies of the annulment papers and of our marriage license.

The DFA said she needed to have a " PETITION FOR RECOGNITION OF FOREIGN JUDGMENT "

My question is:

Is that the same as having the papers " AUTHENTICATED" at the Philippine embassy in America?
I was told once "authenticated" in America, I can send them to her and she can take them to the DFA or NSO.

thanks,
rujan

rujan

Male

Philippines

2008-12-17 21:51:00

I-130 approved, sent to national records center instead

QUOTE (queuedup @ Mar 13 2009, 10:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would get your senators involved as well and have them apply some pressure. You should not have to pay for their mistake!!

My congressman has been involved since day one and has done a super job so far.... but there is only so much they can do too.

rujan

Male

Philippines

2009-03-13 23:21:00

I-130 approved, sent to national records center instead

QUOTE (Mommy @ Mar 12 2009, 01:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you are going to a route of CR-1/IR-1 visa then after your case got approved from USCIS, the case will be send to NVC (National Visa Center) and that is normal. You will have to do the NVC process before the case will be forward to the Embassy.

Here is the link of the NVC process

http://www.visajourn...he_NVC_ShortCut

At NVC process, you will be required to pay the fees too, for AOS fee (Affidavit of Support) $70 and IV fee (Immigrant Visa) $400.

You are right, I was mis-informed by USCIS..... I must go through NVC. But I'm still confused as to why my I-130 went to the national records center instead of the NVC. Not only does this cost me an extra $340.00 but adds 6 months to the process

wncrjb

rujan

Male

Philippines

2009-03-13 21:46:00

I-130 approved, sent to national records center instead

My I-130 was approved last September, We were suppose to do consular Processing......

Instead of the I-130 going to Manila, it became "missing" from September until last week. Thanks to my congressman, it was finally found at the national records center.

What is the national records center, and why was my I-130 sent there instead?

Even when we called USCIS, they said they no longer had it but could NOT tell us where it was sent to. ( can you believe that ? )
After finally locating the I-130 at the national records center, my congressman asked if they can forward it to the embassy, and their reply was it can ONLY be sent to the NVC from there, so they were asked to send it there......

the national records center called my congressman yesterday and informed them that there is a NEW rule that states the only way they can release the I-130 is to send a form I-824, along with $340.00.

I figured this added expense was bad enough, but then was told it may take 6 MONTHS to get this I-824 approved before they can release my I-130.

Is there any end to the ####### the can be played on us ?
does USCIS make up rules as they go to see how far we can be pushed and to see how much money they can get out of us?
As of right now, there seems to be no rhyme or reason to their process.

rujan

Male

Philippines

2009-03-11 23:02:00

VSC did not send our case to NVC...

QUOTE (kpspps @ Mar 14 2009, 09:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But VSC instead of posting the papers to NVC sent them to some National Recording Center (NRC) -

Now how can they do this to us?!!! i mean this is no small mistake...our three months were wasted!

so what should we do? are there any chances of our case I130 getting completed before my K3 interview in end of may and if yes how?!! are there any chance of converting the K3 interview into an Ir1/CR1 interview?!!

Thanks

I just made a post about the national records center a few days ago. My I-130 ended up there too last September and it took my congressman until last week to locate it.
The bad news is that in order to get your I-130 "released" from the national records center, you must submit the form I-824 , along with copies of your I-130, I-797 and $340.00. If that isn't bad enough, I was told this takes 6 months to process before your I-130 can be sent to the NVC.

wncrjb

rujan

Male

Philippines

2009-03-14 21:18:00

Inmigrant Relative of US Citizen (Stepson)

Hi
I am US Resident married to US Citizen. My son is 16 years old, lives in Peru, and we want to bring him to USA. My US husband would act as the Petitioner.
I know that my husband have to fill out a I-130 form. For the specific case of my son, I think I can submit together the I-130 plus the I-485 plus the work and travel authorization.
I have these questions:
1) How long it would take from the day we send the I-130 form to USCIS up to the approval of it?
2) What is the type / name of Visa he would receive?
3) After the US Embassy in Peru issue the correspondent visa, what is the period of time that he would have to enter to USA?
4) Is it true that I can summit the I-130 plus I-485 together? And he needs to ask for work authorization and travel parole? (He wants to work in US).
Thank you in advance for your kind reply.
regards,
Ivette

Your husband submits the I-130 petition for your son who would eventually be issued a CR2 or IR2 visa depending on whether you and your husband have your second wedding anniversary before or after the visa is issued. Your son would then arrive qualified for a green card and able to work immediately. There is no need to adjust his status. He comes as a legal resident from day one.

I would think in terms of one year from petition filing to visa issuance.

Thank you very much for your answer. I got married in USA on July 2006, and my son wants to be in USA around January 2008, so I guess this is the IR2 visa right? This is case is not a K4 visa type right?

ivette

Not Telling

Peru

2007-05-02 15:18:00

MENA WOMEN: What kind of jobs are your husbands doing/looking into?

QUOTE (shadtov @ Apr 23 2008, 07:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (Rocketta @ Apr 22 2008, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hubby is a barber. Hopefully I can convince him to go back to school after he works on getting a GED. However, it is his life and one of the things he wants badly is to live his life as he sees fit so I'll support whatever he wants to do..... well for a while.

a barber can make a good living. And if he can open his own shop, he can rent out spaces to other barbers and have quite a bit of autonomy. I'm not sure if a barber makes as much as a hair stylists who works with women, but I think it would be a pretty steady job, here.

He can go the barber route or the salon route it's up to him as long as he knows he will be doing my hair regardless ow what he wants to do for a living.

Actually, if he learns how to do my hair, I have dreads there is a lot of money in the maintenance of natural hair styles.

About the deep south and discrimination.....I think saying hey it may not be discrimination is fine but I also think people know in their gut when stuff is up and the answer is always more qualified participants. However, when you find out who got the job and they have years and years less experience than you well it's hard to think anything other than discrimination.

Oh and about seeing muslim names on applications....... check out this study ...

QUOTE

http://findarticles....104521293/print

What's in a name? Study shows that workplace discrimination begins long before the job seeker shows up for an interview
Kendra Hamilton

Thinking of naming your child Keisha or Aisha? How about Rasheed or Tremayne? African American pars across the nation may have to think again, as a recent study has shown that workplace discrimination begins long before the job seeker shows up for an interview.

Indeed, it seems to be in play from the moment the resume hits the human resource manager's desk.

Dr. Marianne Bertrand, a professor of economics at the University of Chicago, and Dr. Sendhil Mullainathan, MacArthur-winning associate professor of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, have made a significant contribution to the research literature with their new study, "Are Emily and Brendan More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination."

With names chosen from birth records in Chicago and Boston, the researchers crafted sets of resumes--some of higher quality, some of lower--labeled them with either "White-sounding" or "Black-sounding" names and sent nearly 5,000 of them out in response to 1,300 jobs advertised in the Chicago and Boston papers.

The response from colleagues as they designed their deceptively simple study was, "'Oh, yes, you'll find a discrimination effect, a reverse discrimination effect,'" Bertrand says.

Instead, they found that resumes with "White-sounding" names--like Jay, Brad, Carrie and Kristen--were 50 percent more likely than those with "Black-sounding" names to receive a callback. The results were striking, holding both for jobs at the lower end of the spectrum--cashier and mailroom clerk positions--and for those at the executive level. Put another way, a White job seeker would have to send out at least 10 resumes to receive a single contact from a potential employer. A Black candidate, meanwhile, would have to send out 15--and this in a "soft" economy with a relatively low rate of new job creation.

The most intriguing--and troubling--aspect of the study was that the discrimination effect held even for candidates with stronger credentials: those who had gone to better schools, or won awards, or had fewer resume "gaps," periods of at least six months without employment.

"We really thought a higher quality resume would help the African American candidate--that the employer would put less weight on the names," Bertrand says.

And indeed, improving the resume quality helped candidates with White-sounding names significantly--their chances of receiving a callback rose 30 percent. But for candidates with Black-sounding names, "we found none of that. If anything, we found the opposite," Bertrand says.

"It was very counterintuitive," she adds. "One imagined employers looking at the names and kind of screening at that stage, not going any further, not even reading the resume. People in HR (human resources) call that a 'deselection process,' where you see a pile of resumes that you have to get through and do a kind of rapid screen" in order to separate the wheat from the chaff.

"That's exactly how we used to do it," notes Kimberly Wilson, who held a human resources position in a mid-sized social policy research firm in the Washington, D.C., area. It was Wilson's job to cull the stack of resumes--"perhaps around 300" for every position, she says--down to about 20 names that would then be brought before a committee.

"And every time, the committee would be more critical of resumes with Black-sounding or foreign-sounding names. 'Oh, yes, she did a research internship, but it wasn't in health and that's what we're really looking for,'" Wilson says. When the names didn't provide a clue to race, the committee members would often zero in on other data--professional organizations, for example.

"'Oh, he belonged to the Hispanic fellowship group in college," she adds, explaining, "I don't even think it was conscious, certainly not in most cases."

Conscious or not, the MIT-UChicago study demonstrates that employers actively discriminate among job candidates on the basis of race. And attempts by African Americans to improve their chances with more education and more skills don't appear to help at all.

In addition, the study showed that:

Adjusting for gender greatly increased the discrimination effect. There was a difference of 3.35 percentage points--or 50 percent--between the callback rates for all Whites (10.1 percent) and all Blacks (6.7 percent). But the callback rate for the lowest scoring Black female name, Aisha (2.2 percent) was 6.1 percentage points below that of the lowest scoring White female name, Emily (8.3 percent) and 11.4 percentage points below that of the highest scoring White female name. Indeed, five of the nine Black female names--Aisha, Keisha, Tamika, Lakisha and Tanisha--scored lower than the lowest scoring White female name. By contrast, the racial gap between male names was not nearly so pronounced. The lowest scoring White and Black male names--Neil and Rasheed--were only 3.6 percentage points apart.

Applicants who lived in "better" neighborhoods--"Whiter," more educated, higher income--received more callbacks than those who did not. But again, Whites benefited so much more than Blacks, it was not clear that Blacks benefited at all, suggesting that, despite a widespread societal belief in the stigmatizing effect of a "ghetto" address, a good address doesn't help African Americans overcome discrimination either.

The racial gap in callbacks varied greatly by occupation and industry, but not necessarily in expected ways. The gap between Whites and Blacks for the highest occupational category, the managerial and executive category, was the lowest measured: 33 percent. The highest racial gap was seen in the rung below the top level--administrative supervisors, who saw a racial gap of 64 percent. And near the bottom of the ladder, secretaries had the second highest racial gap in callbacks.

The extent of the discrimination is "remarkably uniform" across all occupations and industries. Neither federal contractors--bound by affirmative action rules--nor companies who call themselves "Equal Opportunity Employers" discriminate less than any others, suggesting that the designation may be more or less meaningless. The only exceptions were companies located in Black neighborhoods in Chicago--these discriminated less than other firms.

Placed in the national context--the fact that African Americans are twice as likely to be unemployed as White Americans and that, when employed, they earn 25 percent less--the study seems both an explanation and a reiteration of very bad tidings.

It was certainly greeted as such in Boston and Chicago when the results were released earlier this year. They sparked a blizzard of newspaper coverage, not to mention spirited discussions on radio call-in shows.

Bertrand says she has been virtually inundated with phone calls and e-mails--particularly, from "people who in their own lives are carrying out the experiment," she explains. "I've heard from people who were African American and had a very distinct African American name who changed the name on their resumes to a less race-salient name, dumbed down their education and did much better....

"Of course, that was not our point."

Though many media accounts have seized on the name-changing aspect as a possible solution, Bertrand is quite clear that "it seems like an easy way out. The burden should be on the companies, not on the person looking for a job. And to give up your name? When names are such an important part of personal identity--No?"

Nor should the study's findings deter African American job seekers who want to sharpen their skills, says Dr. William Harvey, vice president of the American Council on Education and director of ACE's Office of Minorities in Higher Education.

"Unfortunately, there's nothing in the study that contradicts what we already anecdotally know to be true of the experience of African Americans in the job market. There's nothing surprising here," he says. "So this should not deter those of us being discriminated against from getting as many weapons as possible to add to our arsenals--and one of the most respected weapons is still higher education."

Bertrand adds that she is quite encouraged by the fact that "there's been a huge amount of interest, much more than we expected, from people in training and resource management." She hopes in the future "to use the study as a training device, to kind of illustrate to the HR people that these kinds of biases might be at play, whether they're conscious or subconscious," adding, "What we're hearing from the people in HR who have contacted us is that they want to de-bias the selection process too."

Mean Callback Rates By First Name *

White Female Black Female

Mean Mean
Name Callback Name Callback

Emily 8.3% Aisha 2.2%
Anne 9.0% Keisha 3.8%
Jill 9.3% Tamika 5.4%
Allison 9.4% Lakisha 5.5%
Sarah 9.8% Tanisha 6.3%
Meredith 10.6% Latoya 8.8%
Laurie 10.8% Kenya 9.1%
Carrie 13.1% Latonya 9.1%
Kristen 13.6% Ebony 10.5%

White Male Black Male

Mean Mean
Name Callback Name Callback

Neil 6.6% Rasheed 3.0%
Geoffrey 6.8% Tremayne 4.3%
Brett 6.8% Kareem 4.7%
Brendan 7.7% Darnell 4.8%
Greg 7.8% Tyrone 5.3%
Todd 8.7% Jamal 6.6%
Matthew 9.0% Hakim 7.3%
Jay 13.2% Leroy 9.4%
Brad 15.9% Jermaine 11.3%

* NOTES: 1) SAMPLE: ALL SENT RESUMES. 2) THIS TABLE REPORTS CALLBACK
RATES BY FIRST NAME WITHIN EACH SEX/RACE GROUP, FIRST NAMES ARE RANKED
BY INCREASING CALLBACK RATE.

SOURCE: "ARE EMILY AND BRENDAN MORE EMPLOYABLE THAN LAKISHA AND JAMAL?
A FIELD EXPERIMENT ON LABOR MARKET DISCRIMINATION" BY DR. MARIANNE
BERTRAND AND DR. SENDHIL MULLAINATHAN

Racial Gap in Callback Rates by Occupation, Industry *

Panel A: Occupation Breakdown

Callback rates
for

% of Ads White Black Ratio Difference
Names Names

Executive &
Managerial 14.5% 7.91% 5.95% 1.33 1.96%
Administrative
Supervisors 7.7% 9.57% 5.85% 1.64 3.72%
Sales Representatives 15.2% 8.04% 5.09% 1.58 2.95%
Sales Workers, Retail
Finance, Insurance
& Personal Services 16.8% 10.46% 7.05% 1.48 3.41%
Secretaries 33.9% 10.49% 6.63% 1.58 3.86%
Clerical Workers,
Admin. Support 11.9% 13.75% 9.96% 1.38 3.79%

Panel B: Industry Breakdown

Callback rates
for

% of Ads White Black Ratio Difference
Names Names

Manufacturing 8.3% 6.93% 3.96% 1.75 2.97%
Transportation
and Communication 3.0% 12.16% 14.86% 0.82 -2.70%
Wholesale
and Retail Trade 21.5% 8.76% 5.71% 1.53 3.05%
Finance, Insurance
and Real Estate 8.5% 10.63% 4.35% 2.44 6.28%
Business and
Personal Services 26.8% 11.30% 6.71% 1.68 4.59%
Health, Educational
and Social Services 15.5% 12.14% 9.50% 1.28 2.64%
Other/Unknown 16.4% 8.71% 6.47% 1.35 2.24%

* NOTES:

1.) THIS TABLE REPORTS CALLBACK RATES BY RACE AND OCCUPATION (PANEL A)
AND BY RACE AND INDUSTRY (PANEL

. SAMPLE IS ALL SENT
RESUMES (N=4890).

2.) THE TWO TESTS REPORTED IN THE TABLE ARE LOG-LIKELIHOOD TEST OBTAINED
FROM TWO SEPARATE PROBIT REGRESSIONS. IN PANEL A, WE REGRESS THE
CALLBACK DUMMY ON 6 OCCUPATION DUMMIES, A BLACK DUMMY, AND THE
INTERACTION OF THE BLACK WITH THE SIX OCCUPATION DUMMIES. IN PANEL B,
WE REGRESS THE CALLBACK DUMMY ON 7 INDUSTRY DUMMIES, A BLACK DUMMY AND
THE INTERACTIONS OF THE BLACK DUMMY WITH THE 7 INDUSTRY DUMMIES. IN
EACH CASE, THE NULL HYPOTHESIS TESTED IS THAT THE INTERACTION TERM
EFFECTS ARE ALL THE SAME.

SOURCE: "ARE EMILY AND BRENDAN MORE EMPLOYABLE THAN LAKISHA AND JAMAL?
A FIELD EXPERIMENT ON LABOR MARKET DISCRIMINATION" BY DR. MARIANNE
BERTRAND AND DR. SENDHIL MULLAINATHAN

COPYRIGHT 2003 Cox, Matthews & Associates
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group

As an African-American I would love to go through life thinking as long as I show up and do the best I can that I have a legitimate shot at all jobs but it's just not the reality I live in and sadly it's not the reality that our MENA husbands will live in either. That's America.

Maybe one day I'll post the study that showed white males with criminal records got more call backs than minorities without criminal records.

Rocketta

Female

Iraq

2008-04-23 23:43:00

MENA WOMEN: What kind of jobs are your husbands doing/looking into?

Rocketta

Female

Iraq

2008-04-22 14:15:00

Trouble adjusting to life here

Good Luck Venus! I too think school is probably his best option just for the socialization if nothing else. I worry about this too! I hope I can convince my husband that school is the most important thing to success in this country.

Rocketta

Female

Iraq

2008-05-10 12:21:00

He arrived safely

awww, that's so sweet! Congrats!

Rocketta

Female

Iraq

2008-04-25 22:43:00

Crazy question for the MENA people

QUOTE (martiniolive @ May 14 2008, 03:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well first.. I think I would be really flattered that he would be willing to go thru all that visa paperwork and waiting for me. I would really think he must love me very much to do that AND be the one traveling back and forth to my country to see me and my family. I would pretty much dismiss any ideas or doubts about him NOT really loving me because of all of his sacrificing on my behalf just to be with me....WOW reading this now I pretty much know why I feel that he sometimes takes me for granted already (even thought he is not here yet). He must feel so confident in my feelings for him that he NEVER doubts my love. He is always telling me how he always feels my love no matter how far away I am or how long we are apart. I on the other hand am always wondering if he really loves me LOL. I read too much negative stuff on these boards and it gets me thinking way too much. I start to freak out and see his cool calm nature as his being "luke warm" about us. After all I am proving my love everyday making our nest...he's basically just waiting OMG here I go again

how DOES he put up with it? He calmly says : My love, it is normal for you to feel these things because we are far from each other and we share true love and it only proves to me more how much you love me..... I wish I could get some of that! They words sound good...but I can't FEEL them

omg, that's sooooooooo true!

My hubby is always saying, "I'll never leave you even if this happens or even if that happens" but because of all the negative you hear it's hard to believe.

Rocketta

Female

Iraq

2008-05-14 10:34:00

K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reports

K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reports

QUOTE (whitteds @ Oct 7 2007, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just want to know if there is a California service center number to call? Does any one also know a idea about what day of the month of May do they think they are processing now? Just needing a idea or good guess. My wife and like all others are very anxious. My wife is starting to make me nervous. I'm doing what I can... God bless each and everyone of you as we share this pain together.

My priority date is May 19, 2007

===========
My noa 2 just came on fri so you should be close!

Male

Russia

2007-10-07 23:16:00

K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reports

Next step would be to update your timeline

[/quote]
==================

I actually tried to do it but couldnt remember how... got as far as posting an avatar.

Male

Russia

2007-10-06 15:25:00

K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reports

QUOTE (kingstonjamaica @ Oct 6 2007, 12:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (Danno @ Oct 6 2007, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Every day I wander down to my mailbox hoping for a noa2 only to find bills and
credit card offers.

This morning I checked my email and low and behold I find a email informing me that my NOA2 is on the way!
So it looks like I am reporting good news today.

I know a lot of others are waiting and frustrated, I don't know what else to say but "Hang in there".

Anyone know what the next step it for me?

Let me congratulate you on your approval, aren't you excited? Forgive me, but this is the first time i have ever seen an approval posted and the person is this calm. I know today is Saturday, come on now. I sure hope your SO is SCREAMING!!!!!! yeah that's what i'm talking about.

again CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!

------------------
KJ thanks for the Smile you gave me.... don't worry I am excited especially since I was worried I would get a notice informing me I forgot to put "her fathers place of birth" on the first documents I sent in, (didn't even realize it until I was looking at copies a few weeks ago.) but nothing was said.
Does anyone want to take a guess of what date I might be looking at to get Visa-in-hand?

Well yipee... tonight I am gonna go get drunk!!!!
(just kidding, I don't drink)

Male

Russia

2007-10-06 15:08:00

K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reports

Male

Russia

2007-10-06 10:32:00