ForumTitleContentMemberSexCountryDate/Time
US Citizenship General DiscussionBecome a US Citizenship without doing exam
Black adder:

HER: There are two things ye should know of the wise woman

HER: First - she is wise - and secondly...


Black adder: She is a woman ?

Her: - oh you know her then - why didnt you say so

Edited by saywhat, 30 April 2010 - 11:43 AM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-30 11:42:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

My main reason to become a USC is to get rid of this CIS ####### in my life. They are pain in the a$$ and I need to wipe them off my butt!!
The CIS is worse than the Communist, shame on them thinking how "democracy" they are.

The only thing I love about this country is American woman, I come to this country to marry a white blonde and have many many babies
Other than that, this country is a fullload of #######. No democracy, no human right.

I can sense that the inteviewer understood that I wanted to get rid of them in my life but you know what? I hired a lawyer each time when I see those rats!! Haha, they are so polite when they see my lawyers. I had an attitude for them, you know what? They still have to put up with me!

If you dont have a lawyer with you, you are subject to mental torture. thats how these dirty rats play games.

Now the game is over, I am a USC now and f@#k it all.


You should have tried Sweden - lots of white blondes there..and free insurance ..they don't want babies though

Getting rid of the USCIS is a very valid reason. I was truly traumatised by the green card process and I didn't feel well for at least 18 months after it. Having our whole life and future hanging by their whim is most uncomfortable. As far as lawyers are concerned, I only made progress when I ditched the lawyer (I told him what to do but he did it his way and we got an RFE) and so we did it by using the fantastic advice I got on visa journey. I did all the short cuts - frigging the bar codes etc and it all worked out. We sat in the rain in Darwen, Lancashire (Really - the pits of the world) for a year and fought the battle day by day and form by form with many awful setbacks including FedEx losing stuff and the USCIS claiming my wife was not domiciled in the USA therefore must apply in London - and London saying she wasn't domiciled in England so must apply to Nebraska - and it going London - Nebraska - California - Nebraska - London - twice ! ....right up to the fiasco in the London Embassy when they claimed I was an intruder with no appointment who should not have got past the guards .

Yes, getting rid of the USCIS has to be the NUMBER ONE reason.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-02 09:38:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC
I am really glad we have Visa journey - it helps us think through all these decisions and brings ideas out that we hadn't really considered.
For months I was really edgy about doing naturalization because of the 'tax returns forever' when I am in my 80's and 90's should I end up back in England on my own (I am in my 60's now) - but now I feel educated about the pros and cons and I am settled in my mind that I am going to do it.
After all, a nice long weekend in London with a 2 hour stop off at the U.S. Embassy will get rid of the problem should it become one.
I will have the run of every country in Europe and the whole of the US including Hawaii. If I get sick and the insurance says 'hah gotcha - go die in the gutter' like they do, I can go back to England for a year and get fixed (tell em I have resumed my residency), then come back to the US after.

Thats a lot of back up insurance and the run of two continents in return for the one off $675 naturalization fee.

ok now I have to learn the questions - 'What kind of wood was George Washington's false teeth made from ?'

Edited by saywhat, 01 May 2010 - 11:35 AM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-01 11:33:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

Wow, what a discussion that has started! This is great, thank you for the insight! Now yet another interesting question, is there anyone out there who will be or has moved to the country where their spouse is from? We would like to go live in Russia and in my understanding USC can't accept the citizenship of another country without renouncing the blue passport. Any thoughts?



David Soul (starsky and hutch if you can remember them) has gotten British citizenship - it doesnt affect his US Citizenship which he cherishes.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/David_Soul

Edited by saywhat, 30 April 2010 - 10:23 AM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-30 10:22:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC
Sorry to hog the thread but it's a subject that's occupied much of my thoughts for a while.

99% of us can't imagine being done for a crime that would get us deported - I have never done drugs etc etc - but:

Pretty mild circumstances could result in say a $1,000 fine and 6 months probation for an offense that in theory could have a 12 month jail sentence or be seen as a crime involving moral turpitude.

That will get us deported.

Example: when I was 21, I had a wife who flew at me and tried to punch me - I put my forearm up to protect my face and her fist hit my forearm. She really hurt her hand on my forearm and ran around screaming 'look what you have done to my hand'. I have never struck a woman but I have been struck by them three times - once I got a bust nose for 'leaving my house without permission when I wanted to talk to you'. That same woman put her previous boyfriend in hospital for 3 months when she double footed drop kicked him in the back of the neck for talking to a younger woman in public. I didn't report her and he didn't report her - we guys don't - but if it had been the other way round or if she had decided to spin it and report it ?

Many men have gotten themselves into domestic violence situations with circumstances not much different to that - the man will NEVER be believed in a domestic violence case - and it's a sure fire deportation offense.
At least 50% of the couples I have met from all strata of society have had an incident like that in the course of decades of marriage

That's just one example where something can happen in an instant without you being a drunken violent drug using bum - and your whole life can be changed and you will be horrified at the consequences

Conclusion - Get USC - don't stay on GC
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-29 13:57:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

I'll throw my $.02.

LPRs can be deported for certain crimes including theft, minor drug offenses, crimes of moral turpitude, etc. Citizens cant, unless the crime happened before you were a citizen or your citizenship was based on fraud.

I know most people feel they are 100% law abiding so this isn't an issue, but you don't have to do something wrong to be accused of a crime. Furthermore, even if you are innocent your status as an LPR can be used against you. I know a LPR who was falsely accused of committing a theft crime, and the prosecutor threw potential deportation on top of the criminal penalties to force the LPR into a plea she would not have taken if she was a citizen. She probably would have won at trial but being deported was too big a chance to take, so she plead guilty to a reduced charge that she can't be deported for, but she had to plead guilty and that's on her record for life.

Approx 200,000 LPRs have been deported in the last 10 years.

Mistakes happen, I think most police and prosecutors treat immigrants and LPRs different than citizens. Just my $.02


Interesting

I was once talked into pleading guilty for running a red light.

I didn't. I stopped at the light behind another car - I put my handbrake on and put the gears into neutral.
When the light changed, I moved forward and a high powered sports car came speeding from my right - he clipped the front of my car- he took off 30 feet up and spun backwards - I could see the underside of his car as he flew backwards and he destroyed 5 shops and his car when he landed

My total damage was one cracked headlight glass !

His passenger (he and his 8 month pregnant wife) said he came through on green. They both said they were travelling at 28mph

My lawyer said if I didn't plead guilty I would be banned from driving, and if I pleaded guilty I would get £150 fine. I have always regretted pleading guilty - the law is disgraceful sometimes and this plea bargaining system is unfair.

I will check the 200,000 LPR figure - that's interesting

Edited by saywhat, 29 April 2010 - 12:31 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-29 12:30:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

If you renounce your US citizenship due to tax considerations, you will be declared a persona non grata and never be able to see your family here again. There's two things Uncle Sam expects from you: paying taxes and dying. You can't escape the latter, but if you even try to escape the first, you don't shoot yourself in the foot, but the head.

On a more casual note, spending 15 minutes per year to fill out a tax form is IMHO not a huge burden. Filing an income tax return is not synonymous with paying taxes. If you tell the US tax people that you live from hunting deer and illegal immigrants, and eat their meat as well as snails and worms, don't expect for a minute they will check up on you. More importantly, there's a deal between the US and the UK that would prevent double taxation up to . . . I believe . . .$80,000. If you make more than $80K per year at age 93, I think you can afford the assistance of a tax professional who will make sure your money is invested wisely and away from the tax man.


Yes thats all correct, but you have to leave for tax reasons and have millions.
So I would guess that leaving because you miss home AND having less than 2 mill in the bank does not get you in the category of persons that the IRS can pursue for 10 years. That legislation is aimed at the super rich who go to live in Grand Cayman and renounce their US citizenship for only one reason - to avoid tax. Actually it applies to LPR's too after 8 years but very few will fall in the net worth or motive category.

As far as persona non grata is concerned, I believe I could still visit on visa waiver and the only thing I could not do is own a gun as a visitor - they ask you on the firearms form if you have ever renounced citizenship - non of us would want to do that as vistors anyway.

Apart from that, I don't think that US law has any vindictive actions lined up for ordinary people who just want to go home and have just their original nationality. They just say goodbye and bon voyage.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-28 19:53:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

My guess is that this discussion is very different depending on where one is from. If you hold citizenship from a country that affords you few rights, those granted to residents here may not be enough to make you feel secure.


That is very important.
I see posts by people thinking that just being a LPR is like going to heaven and they drool and wax lyrical about the U.S. and fall on the floor and kiss the ground and weep with gratitude more than any citizen could (and that's a lot)
Actually, if I came from one of those countries I would bust a gut getting full citizenship as the horror of being deported back there would spur me on.
Most Europeans who were subjected to a year in a U.S. prison would be more than happy to be deported I reckon and they would never leave their home country again - so freedom from deportation after prison for those folks isn't a big plus practically speaking. But US laws are weird and wonderful and many and multiplied by all the States. It's possible to be an ok person and still get into big trouble. The US has 2 million people behind bars - the UK a mere 70k and they are top of the European league - so it's really easy to get in the clink
I have a friend who has been here 15 years as an LPR and when I ask him about citizenship he says 'I am British and nothing else'.
Fair enough, but he is here for life I reckon as he has a USC wife and a daughter and grand children here and for practical purposes he needs to get USC just in case. He is probably thinking about being hooked for life by the IRS, but its simple to renounce citizenship - actually I think it's free and not many USCIS benefits are.

So I don't see it as serious and hard to get out of as getting married or having a sex change or a tattoo

So no worries so long as you have $675 spare and a couple of days to take off work and you don't mind being photographed waving a little flag

These discussions are very interesting and valuable but the official websites list advantages like 'being able to vote' and 'being able to serve on a jury' which are all very high minded - but I think having more selfish reasons as well is important - as is the assurance of an escape method if it all goes wrong - so that one can do it with a relaxed mind.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-28 18:55:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

I think it's great when a new citizen can run for public office !

But not President.
There are 2 classes of USC - ask Arnold ! Actually top level security clearance requires natural born too - I don't know how that worked for Kissinger or Madeleine Albright - but I do believe it's so.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-28 12:53:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

One way to get a gun, and even learn how to use it and kill people with it as a LPR, is to be between the age of 18 and 25, or even 35, and have the draft reinstated. Male LPR's in this age group are expected to register for selective service and can be in big trouble with the USCIS if they don't.

Of course, lawful permanent resident gives new meaning to the word "permanent", 2 or 10 years is hardly the definition of permanent. I have no experience with what one has to go through to get that second ten year card or even what form to use. If anything like what we went through to get that first ten year card, would be far better to apply for USC.

My wife always felt like an outsider here until she received her certificate, she wanted it, she wants to stay here, and be a part of this country. But still feels like an outsider when she has to renew her foreign passport so she can visit her mom. Still not quite like being a natural born citizen.

A LPR can purchase a home and get royally creamed in property tax, but has no say at the polls to how it will be wasted, that doesn't seem fair either.

LOL, whether a natural born citizen or a LPR, still not a good idea to discuss politics or religion with friends.

Sounds like you are on the east side of Washington state.


Hi Nick

Yes I am on the east side of the Cascades - 8" rain per annum - 300 days sun - but only 200 yards from the mountains so i can be in Seattle in 2 hours. I have a love /horror relationship with the USA at the mo. I can't see any European not being taken aback by Pat Robertson and people killing abortion doctors etc etc so it's hard to adjust for a 'thinking person'. Been here since November 2007 so I am able to handle anything now. I go back to England every 3 or 4 months but I think I will not bother much through the winter in future. I have expert marksman badges going back to 1967 but don't tell the army or they might recruit me into the gimmer sniper squad so I can kill people in...where's next ? I forget.

I think the tax thing worried me as if I do go back to the elephant's grave yard to die, I imagined trying to do turbo tax at 93 years old. I have my head round it now and if I did go back permanently, I would renounce USC

I will have 5 years residency at 65 so I can buy into Medicare. Its about $6,600 pa !! and my wife is younger than me so I can't get in on her coat tails. If I never did qualify through her, I would be paying at least that forever from my pension. $200k if I am unlucky enough to live to a ripe age. That sort of stuff would see me shipping out.

But nothing like that is irreparable or undoable so its USC for me this year.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-28 12:49:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC
A lot to sympathize with there Nick. I didn't have residence in the US as a goal. In fact I persuaded my USC wife to go and live in England. It was the wettest summer since the ice age (2007) and the only place she could get a job was Lancashire which is the pits and a very wet gloomy horrible place. She wasn't doing well with it so we moved to Florida. She tried to get a job for 6 months and eventually here we are in a desert in Washington State where she has the best job she has ever had (her words). I was an alien with no rights to pursue my hobby of target shooting. Luckily the NRA (who I would support if they weren't so right wing), brought a case against Washington State and said LPR's and Citizens are equal under the 14th amendment and can't be discriminated against under the constitution. The law was dropped and I spend 2 days a week at the range (I am retired).

I carry my green card at all times because the USCIS enforcement people practice killing people at the range most days and I rub shoulders with them.

I am in a very conservative part of the State - I am the only one in the club without a blood soaked pick up truck. As long as I don't engage in religion or politics, my friends are charming people and great friends.

But yes we walk a tightrope as far as the law is concerned. Imagine I went through a red light and a family were killed because of my mistake. I could find my myself separated from my whole life by being deported. I am not bothered about being separated from the USA, but I am bothered about being separated from my whole life and landing back in Leeds with nothing and nobody.

It's a remote possibility, but at least getting naturalization will remove that possibility.
Also, the fear and despair when the 10 year green card comes up for renewal is avoided - we know what can go wrong. I had everything go wrong in my process - right up to the last day when I was at the counter inside the US embassy in London and the guy said 'You don't have an appointment, how did you get in here - how did you get past security'.

I walked out approved for a 10 year unconditional green card on that day, but it was typical of what I went through all the way through

Yes I have to get rid of the USCIS - I will apply for naturalization in August. Decision made.

...and if it all goes wrong for me and my wife runs off with Jose the gardener, I will return to the UK and go to London and renounce it.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-28 09:24:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC

LPRs have fewer constitutional rights than citizens.

Not what the 14th amendment says - it says anyone here is equal. Citizen/non citizen. Thats how washington gun laws prohibiting LPR's were overturned last year.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-27 19:12:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionBenefits of Becoming a USC
It's a subject I am tormented by too ! I think I will be applying for naturalization in August but my mind isn't totally settled.

I list the following advantages:(from my perspective only)

A You can come and go to any country for however long and just walk back into the US by showing your passport
B If you are ex UK, it helps shake off the tax people there as they try to claim you are domiciled in the UK for inheritance tax. US inheritance tax is usually zero and will save my hangers on a lot of money
C You can get at your USC spouses social security etc and there are various tax advantages in the US which are denied LPR's... bit obscure and can't be bothered looking em up - but they exist
D Some States have prohibitions on LPR's owning guns (I shoot paper targets and always have)



ok Disadvantages (from my perspective only)
A You are eligible for jury service - I see that as a disadvantage and stuff the civic duty
B The IRS will follow you forever to make you do tax returns - people say oh there is a big exemption for foreign earned income - but I have bank interest, pensions, capital gains - no exemption for them - just Double Tax Relief , paying at the higher rate and having disallowed/carry forward etc and I will have to do tax returns ever year and buy turbo tax when I am 92
C Getting rid of the nationality means going to London (for me) and swearing xyz). I will be able to visit the USA after on visa waiver though


Summary
I totally discount the rah rah I am a citizen of the finest country in the whole of the world in the whole of history - I don't buy all that stuff at all. My personal culture is English and always will be. Most Americans couldn't possibly envisage (envision) giving up this wonderful God given opportunity but I see the US as just another country and nothing holy or mystical

I am in the US and staying because:
A My wife is a USC and couldn't exist in the real world (naughty boy)
B It rains a lot less than the UK - I mean the sun shines more.
C Stuff is cheaper
D I can afford a big car and not sit in traffic jams and there are no speed cameras
E If you live in a no income tax state like me, you can get your effective rate down to 10 to 12 percent
F There are less foreigners here than in the UK (tongue in cheek remark)

I think on balance I will apply for citizenship - the Americans will be ok with that because although my motives are selfish and not civic minded, I am pouring all my wordwide wealth and 3 pensions into this country, paying all my tax and obeying all laws. I am retired so taking nobody's job - giving jobs instead.Oh and being a wonderful husband to one of their citizens (joke)


Seriously now, if it all goes wrong and I end up back in the UK on my botty, getting rid of the citizenship is a day out at the embassy in London - do some shopping, river cruise - so it's not like a tattoo. The IRS only follows you for years if you admit to having millions in the bank.

Jobs a good 'un

Edited by saywhat, 27 April 2010 - 07:08 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-27 19:04:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionDo I need to bring my passport to the interview
All part of the rich ethnic quilt which is the USA and the USCIS and all the other agencies. I would NOT bring my son here - he is 'accident prone' and would get into all sorts of trouble pretty quick. He came here for a week's visit last year and was nearly knifed by two 'ladies' in town who were living in a station wagon. The USA is for people who are nimble on their feet and see problems ahead of time and have 3 foreign pensions and an ok wad. A capitalist society is for capitalists and the rest are cannon fodder/wage slaves.

If my wife goes off with Jose the lawn man, I would have to buy into Medicare in few short years. It would cost me $6,600pa year one and increasing steeply thereafter. If she sticks with it till I am 72, I can get in for less on her coat tails.

The USA gets a bit too intense for me at times but it's very interesting - like watching an 80 car pileup on the interstate - compulsive viewing. Getting Citizenship will allow me the right to say things like that too without being lynched, shot or told to go back where I came from - so I will definitely be doing it.

I agree with all that's been said about documentation and the CIS - we have to be educated and nimble and fast thinking and clear about what they can and cannot do - otherwise we will be steam rollered by the system.

VJ is the best thing ever invented when it comes to these matters
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-03 09:30:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionDo I need to bring my passport to the interview

Basic rule it, anything you bring in with you, you leave with it. If they want to keep anything, like your evidence or even passport, they can take a copy of it for their records, but you leave with all the originals that you brought in.

For what ever weird reason, my wife's IO wanted her original divorce papers, wife said, no way, it would cost me a fortune to get another certified copy, her IO said, okay. Why should she even ask for anything like that?

Been other reports of IO's wanting key documentation, like your green card, passport, evidence, etc., again without justifiable reason. You are not even legal without your greencard!

At the oath ceremony, that is different, you walk in with your greencard, have to surrender, and walk out with your USC certificate. But then you realize while you can enter this country with your foreign passport and greencard, you cannon enter this country with your foreign passport and your US certificate. So you rush to get your US passport, and hope and pray they don't lose your USC certificate in the process.

Then you learn you even have to keep your foreign passport if you want to enter into your home country.


Depends on your home country off course..

Like I could enter the UK on a US passport - get a 6 months stamp - actually that would be a good idea coz the UK tax man would not know it was me - so I could go over my 90 days with impunity. Getting back into the US would be impossible unless my current wife, oops I mean my final wife, mailed me the passport to the UK

Course I would have to do my Boss Hogg impression at Leeds airport so they didnt know I was a Brit. Or Martin Luther King - nope it has to be Clint... 'get off my lawn'

I reckon it's up to them if they want an original of anything like a divorce certificate. I guess if they had doubts about a copy, they would RFE it before the interview - but they got all the stuff at green card stage and accepted it.

Oops mistake - that's logic and we are talking USCIS ! ok anything could happen - and probably will.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-02 19:55:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionDo I need to bring my passport to the interview

That's brillant Say what... i am going to use that line in any situation where they want to taken anything aussie away since Australia is a part of the commonwealth hahah


You Aussie family of ours - stick with us and BIG LIZ and you will be ok - don't listen to the Aussie separatists - otherwise you will end up like the U.S. with no Queen's speech on the telly after your turkey on xmas day -

Only progressive insurance ads
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-01 11:12:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionDo I need to bring my passport to the interview
When I took my driving exam they wanted to keep my UK driver's license as it was 'Out of State' according to their manual.

I told em it wasn't mine to give - it belonged to the Queen. They shrugged and gave up.

Nobody wants to argue with BIG LIZ

I would always take my a passport to the USCIS for anything - but they would have to fight me to take it off me - and fight harder than a black president getting that ole betsy black powder rifle off a granddad in Mississippi !
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-04-30 12:04:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionInterview Experience in San Francisco today
heck that was a cheat question !

'What do we have to pay to the government' is not in the 100 question list


http://www.uscis.gov...000b92ca60aRCRD


I would have said 'my utmost respect'

Anyway congrats - all this expecting pleasantness and affability betrays your foreign roots - they need dying - your roots are showing !

I just expect 'put your hands on the car' 'show me your hands', 'hit the ground alien' etc

I went through one of those new explosive detection device thingies at the airport - it blows air up your pants and samples the gases that come out (I know). I giggled coz it tickled and they pulled me out and took me to the little room for scrutiny. I didn't say a word - i just grinned and giggled. We mustn't do that or the representatives of we the people will swat us good. Life is VERY serious and then we die.

Edited by saywhat, 12 May 2010 - 10:13 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-12 22:10:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionJourney Almost Over
Sounds weird though that the oath letter has not come....
If it was approved back in early January its very weird.
Absolutely need to keep on top of it - I would call every week and ask about the oath letter.
Jeez final escape from their clutches must be worth 40 points off the blood pressure

That's until the original certificate gets lost when applying for the passport - just joking, I have never heard of that happening ever - but sending the original ? The Post office guy who checks the application for the passport
should certify a copy of the certificate and let us keep the original. Never mind, you will feel great with passport in hand - unless you are in Arizona and you leave it at home... 'papers please ! '
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-14 17:45:00
US Citizenship General Discussionpassports

I beleive you should be all set. The time it is important to have previous (expired) passports is if you have been a LPR during that time. They like to verify the entry/exit stamps on the passport with what you provided on the N-400 application for the validity of the information... nothing more.

Cheers!



Super ! thanks very logical
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-17 20:29:00
US Citizenship General Discussionpassports
I see a lot of references to taking one's passport and the previous passport to the interview

My current passport started in 2004 and I didn't come to the US as part of the USCIS procedures until 2005

All my toings and froings are recorded in my current passport and my previous passport is somewhere in my daughter's loft back in England

Will my current passport be sufficient given that all my relevant trips are recorded in it ?
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-17 19:50:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

Your original question was when could you request the modified oath, the only conceivable time is right before you say the oath out loud and before you sign it at your interview. You are the first one to ask this question, difficult to say what comes afterwards. Would your IO simply cross out God? Or the entire phrase, So help me, God?

My step daughter could have applied last Tuesday, talked to her about it, was too busy at college with finals, moving, and stuff like that. Soon she will be 21 years of age. I normally let my own kids handle things like this, adults and all that, but could very easily fill out the form for her and definitely make out the check for $675.00 that she cannot do.

I handled all of immigration, when I asked my wife to marry me, she handled all the legal matters in both Venezuela and Colombia as I was dead lost, not only with the language, but with their laws as well. So figured I should handle that here. We had a monthly club of seven other USC males that married women from Latin America, three of the husbands had the attitude that since they wanted to come here, they could do all the paperwork. That was difficult for them, not only a legal language barrier, but dealing with our government agencies. They were calling me quite frequently for questions, my wife and daughter were very happy I handled that burden for them. But they did study the forms before we submitted them. Wife's IO went through the form and even asked her why she answered some questions the way she did. Can't get by that.



Just realised that I do NOT understand the process. I assumed I could affirm.

I watched the video of the interview on the USCIS website and one has to raise one's hand and swear - but no mention of god...

Then I read part 13 of the n400 and that allows swearing or affirming and again no reference to god

Then part 14 of the n400 sets out the oath of allegiance and suddenly this time god is mentioned and no opportunity to affirm is mentioned.

I am ignorant as to whether asking (at the time of the interview) to affirm at THE CEREMONY later, will cause USCIS to kick me into the slow line for an individual ceremony... Given their occasional discrimination against unbelievers (as noted in previous cases), this slow timing could be deliberate in order to discourage people from claiming the first amendment.

Anyone know ? (through experience)whether individual ceremonies are required for affirmers ?

this is the video of the interview and test>>

http://www.uscis.gov...000b92ca60aRCRD
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-18 12:54:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

Without giving the initial date of your green card, nor whether you are applying for marriage or the five year, could ask when you could apply for the N-400. Same question asked a zillion times, but if you asked it, we would be back on topic. Just found an interesting post for a change, so far, very friendly, no personal attacks, so maybe the mods will give us a break.

But good to hear questions or comments about the oath for USC, and could to have it questioned, the oath is the end of the journey, and it should be questioned. Many aspects of our government should be questioned, not simply blindly obeyed. This is the concept that formed this country, all men (and women) were created equal, and all should have a say in how we are governed. Actually I prefer not to be governed.



My three years as a GC holder living with USC spouse throughout is up in November so I can submit the n400 3 months early in August but not qualify for the interview until November. I need to have the photos done within 30 days of the n400,so the ones i got done recently are useless as Walgreen's put the date on the back.
Yes I like VJ as it's conducted nice and sweet for the most part - we all get tetchy from time to time but most folk mend their ways when it's mentioned they are going OTT. Not like in 'another place'.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-18 09:02:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod
Lot of thinking in Common there Nick

Next time I am in Minnesota (In summer), I will look you up - I have been been there but that was another adventure.


Anyway, best close the thread now before the mods close it for us...

See you around the forums

Alan
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-17 17:48:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

Well aware of the Jehovah's, after my divorce, had this not so bad looking woman coming around week after week trying to convert me, and that book she was carrying was the explicit word of God. No, I didn't make advances toward her, a woman like that would drive me nuts.



Actually this is the most demonic thing I have ever done in my life >

I was divorced and living alone for the first time in 14 years in a 1 bedroom apartment in a bad area . Thrown out from my wife and kids for an 18 year old boy she fancied - we were 36.
It was November in Yorkshire - dark, wet, horrible. A knock on the door and an angel of beauty stood there - with a bible. Of course I asked her in and she read me some superstitious drivel while I nodded politely.

The next week I was under my car on a 'ferret board' - like a skateboard with castors. I was laid on my back when a pair of legs appeared upside down. It was her and she asked if she could read me some more from the bible. She did while I looked up her dress all the while. After that I decided it was the fiery pit for me - nobody can enter the kingdom after that. So my opinions now cannot possibly get me in a worse position than I am in already.

I had a pal who used to go to christian camps in the country - man they were creeping under the tents all night long and bonking like rabbits ! Could be I have missed out on a lot by not being religious. I mean David Koresh was getting some and then some !

Perhaps I shouldn't be so pedantic and practise my philosophy of 'whatever works'

PS my wife was very religious and still is..

Edited by saywhat, 17 May 2010 - 01:26 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-17 13:23:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

I don't mine saying "so help me God", after an oath, a tradition of our nation, and it has to be my God, not yours or anyone else's. Do not feel that I am being a hypocrite on the subject.

And it appears to me, saywhat, you are using everyone else's god besides your own. we all have a god, whether it be a beer, your deepest, inward thoughts, a banana, or even that thingy hanging between your legs


Heck that last one would be useful next time the Jehovah's come round. Explaining that particular god should be fun. I don't think it would be a good god at my age as it's centrality to my being is waning, and if I had a god, it wouldn't be a gimmer god. When they told my dad they were Jehovah's witnesses, he would reply 'Why, what has he done ?'

A god is a force that created the world and everything in it. Darwen (an Englishman and therefore credible) wrote that bananas etc evolved to be attractive to creatures who would eat them and spread their seeds along with manure. There is no motive and it's not mystical, it's just what works that's all. On that basis, my god would have to be 'what works' - and even that has no motive behind it because bananas didn't sit down and design themselves to be tasty, they evolved by virtue of what works - bit by bit. Bananas were not as tasty 100 million years ago - it's gradual. Intelligent design ? How come I have an ingrowing toenail on my right big toe and so did my mother - could it be the creator didn't design humans perfectly ? A nine for effort - but needs to complete the work carefully. Or perhaps my toenail was to 'test' me. Humans are not designed as well as the average Honda - otherwise there would be no doctors or hospitals.

None of us can get our heads round infinity, and getting our heads round what is gradually possible in 3.5 billion years - 3,500,000,000 years, 42,000,000,000 months - is too much for most people and therefore they put an angelic smile on their faces and turn it all over to a mystery man with a benign smile who will protect them with a cloak of love - even if they work in the twin towers or are held in auswitz.

It's too much of a stretch for me to say that my god is 'what works', although it's close. There is no immorality in that because I rate myself more ethical and moral and caring than many religious people - people like Mohammed Atta for instance, or the camp guards at Auswitz, the vast majority of whom were religious and so would have no problem taking the oath.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-17 10:32:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod
This is how to swear an oath

I could do it this style which might be the most effective way to get em to drop it.


Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-16 12:19:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

The link leads me to a website in Spanish!

yes my son lives in tenerife..

but there are no words anyway so the picture tells the story...

try this :


Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-16 11:49:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

My husband is atheist and will be struggling with this same issue when the time comes. The "just say it, it doesn't mean anything" argument, I find rather ridiculous. My husband would say "so help me tooth fairy" or "so help me Father Christmas" before he ever said, "so help me God".

For the record, I am not an atheist, but I fully support anyone's right to freedom of religion, and freedom from religion.

If you're principals tell you not to say it, don't.


I am warming to the idea of winning by not being simplistic about this:

This youtube explains the idea.

http://www.in3.info/...9206-Tiger-wmv/

Edited by saywhat, 16 May 2010 - 11:39 AM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-16 11:38:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

Nothing makes sense including the phrase, so help me God.


Interesting point about a naturalized citizen refusing to serve and being deported. Actually, I doubt that because breaking an oath is not a reason to strip someone of citizenship - only fraud during the process plus treason perhaps are grounds. It would be hard to prove because a person could say there was no fraud and they really meant the oath when they made it. I reckon they would charge a person for not answering the draft and impose whatever penalty there is for that. After the punishment, if they were GC they would then be deported but not if they were a citizen. The oath simply puts them on the hook for punishment rather than loss of citizenship. Actually it's superfluous because a GC person 18 to 26 has already signed up for selective service and will be punished /deported

I reckon the Americans are entitled to their own language in their own country so I try and zip it and remain impassive. Occasionally I hear something even on mainsteam news channels like 'He was knocked down by the car and drug along the street' and the pain to my sensibilities is greater than the physical pain of the guy who was 'drug'.

I think I am coming to a sensible compromise. If the officer starts to give me a hard time and says it will delay the process for 6 months or he says I can't become a citizen unless I am a believer in the supreme being, I will give in, say the oath and then fight em afterwards with full power for 5 years. Heck I might even sue em and get half a mill ! If it's easy and there are no threats or delays, I will affirm.

ps If anyone is considering committing a crime - do it in front of a non believer in one of the 5 States (link above) who will not employ non believers, or allow them to run for office, or give evidence in court. The non believers who witness your crime are not allowed to give evidence against you. Unintended consequences or what !
When they came up with that one they must have assumed that unbelievers are bad people and would be giving evidence on behalf of other bad people charged with a crime - if the only witness to the assassination of a Senator from a certain party was a non believer, they would change that law tout suite if no sooner - and then change it back after the trial.

As always, the middle way is the best, and I shall seek to achieve my goal and persist in it until I win, but in a way that carries the minimum risk or inconvenience to myself. Martyrdom is for people with a high pain threshold - not me.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-16 11:22:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

As a US citizen you can run for the senate, but you will have to say this:
"The Senate Oath of Office:I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

or this if you elect to join the military, think you are too old for that:

"In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."





Religion was never brought up to us in the immigration process, So help me God. :rofl:


Heck it gets worse:

Hopefully I will be too old to parachute into Iran (next on the list). My granddad was called up in the last draft for the first war coz he was 33 with 5 small kids and they excluded him from the earlier drafts. Then they decided to get anyone and he lasted a couple of months before he was killed. My dad was in Burma during the 2nd round. He was away 6 years. So we are not a pacifist family as such, but we know what the deal is too and we would rather not.

We drove down to the petrified forest State Park near Ellensburg and there was a brass plaque explaining how many millions of years old the fossils were. Someone had taken a knife and scratched hell out of the plaque and written 'WICKED LIES' on it. It was done very angrily and violently

The world is 6k years old according to these dinosaur jockeys.

At least I am just gobby about these matters but these guys are seriously violent against people and property.
There is one thing that the UK is much better at and that is APATHY. The level of APATHY in the UK allows everyone to shrug and say I don't know and I don't care and they live happily ever after. The extraordinary passion and energy and commitment of the American people means that we don't have the protection of apathy. That's why the constitution is so important - without that I would be burned at the stake as non believers used to be before the constitution.

I saw that story of the Colorado military base where people who refused to join a certain church had their training records altered so they were failed on the course and rejected !

It's no joke and it's not just theory and postulating wishy washy ideas off the ceiling - these religious zealots are extremely dangerous people - they can ruin us, break us and if we are abortion doctors they will shoot us in front of our families.

Only a constant assertion of the constitution and adherence to the law can hold the line.

Only people stating their RIGHT not be religious and showing up in statistics of the USCIS etc can stop the the zealots closing in to finish us off in the time honoured method of zealots throughout history

I don't really need to evangelise them any more, I just want to be protected from their demands.. (such as the oath)
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-15 20:49:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

Saywhat,

Still feel you are taking that "so help me God" phrase too literally and putting a burden on yourself that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

There is no religious connotation with that phrase, simply means you will try your best to follow the contents of the oath.

If there is a religious connotation with that phrase, you are creating it. So help me God!



I know what you are saying guys. There are 300 million people to convert to my way of thinking and I have never even converted anyone - not even in Europe. So raising the issue isn't going to cause anyone to think. It's a lot of effort to gain little -- or more probably nothing at the risk of the USCIS making my life hell (again). When I was single, I did used to go with Catholic girls a lot coz they think the pre marriage stuff is really dirty/evil/guilty and it gives em a great buzz; So I don't think religion is totally without it's uses. Oops touch of English flippancy/facetiousness there, but my research shows its true.

I have this lingering thought that I have a responsibility to do my tiny little bit towards making the US less theocratic and to move them back to the constitution, and I just feel I owe the civil rights movement and the suffrage movement etc a little contribution of my own. I am never going to join happy clappy volunteer groups or a church like the USCIS suggests I do after naturalization, so I can only contribute to the morality pool of the US by adding one drop into this huge ocean we call America (As the CEO of BP might say). It will help me not a bit. It might hinder me. Doing it might help those who come after - but again by an infinitesimal amount if at all. I guess Jefferson stuck his neck out a long way on our behalf by backing these concepts and we are living off his efforts for the rights we do have - but after all, what greater respect can I show the US than to make sure my vows are made sincerely and not by swearing to someone that I don't believe in who is coughing away in the volcanic ash cloud ...

At the same time I acknowledge that most of the other 300 will only be able to read the three sentences that they managed for their English test and therefore I might be the only one who knows the nuances of what I am saying anyway.

It's a two pipe problem dear Watson
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-15 16:38:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod
The black sheep of the family:


http://www.godlessge...nstitutions.htm
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-14 18:30:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

I'm a "native" and I care. :)If Nik goes through Naturalization, I think that your experiences will be valuable to us as well!



Yes you are right - lots of people care about the constitution - if it wasn't for the constitution and the fairness and equality it guarantees, I would be out of here on the next plane. These States that refuse to allow unbelievers to hold State Office or State Employment or even give evidence in court ! are the enemies of the constitution and I am the friend of the constitution. The Fed Gov should sue em.

I will report back in detail as to how it actually goes at the ceremony. The swearing at the interview doesn't involve any references to god - I know that coz I have watched the USCIS video. So it's just the ceremony where I have to get it right.

Have a read of this : >>
http://www.usnews.co...rvice-seriously

Edited by saywhat, 14 May 2010 - 06:27 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-14 18:23:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

Hope this helps. Good luck with the rest of your journey too and in getting your modified oath too..

Ant


Hi Ant

Didn't know there were private ceremonies on request - heck we live and learn

I will be ok with the multitude thing with their Sunday best on - so no problema. They have the ceremonies around the State and sometimes they have em in my town. As long as I don't have to wear one of those big Uncle Sam hats it should be ok.

Some cheerleaders in red white and blue would be good - especially if relatives aren't allowed - then the wifey can't see me taking a sneaky gander !

All I have to do then is steer clear of Arizona until I lose my accent
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-14 10:51:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod
Actually, it is a tricky situation. Reading some of the links in the thread, the law allows us to take a modified oath, but some USCIS officers don't know that and will say that you cannot become a citizen if you don't believe in God.

They are then sent a memo by their superiors after we complain and it all gets sorted out.

However, in the meantime, we are stuck in limbo for another 6 months to a year while the law is asserted.

The question is, are we prepared to go through another exchange of letters and delays with the USCIS in order to stand on principle and the constitution and make things fairer for those who come after us, or do we just go along with it for an easy life ?

I suppose many women just cooked their husband's meals rather than fight for universal suffrage

I suppose many black people just kept a low profile rather than sitting at the front of the bus

The best thing I could give the U.S as a golden hello is to put myself in a bad position in the cause of protecting the constitution. 90% of Americans will give me no credit for that as their adherence to the constitution is lame when it comes to atheists who are equated with criminals and communists and people of no morals. In Europe, atheists are generally seen as thinking people of principle, but that isn't the case here.

Perhaps I should do as the Romans while I am in Rome and if their constitution withers because they won't stand up for it, it's their own fault.

It's a dilemma - why should I care for the constitution when the natives don't ?

But if my naturalization is delayed for 6 months because I won't acknowledge god, and if in the meantime I am deported because of some unfair formality such as a traffic violation which is aggravated by some factor, do I really want to be part of a country that would do that to me ?

Quite a lot to ponder - on balance I think I will risk it and ask for the modified oath. Then at least I will be able to call myself a real American by virtue of something more than just a certificate.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-14 10:20:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

Nothing substantive to add but -- ALAN!!! We miss you in the UK forum -- we were just talking in the 2005-07 filers thread about how your discussions of duvets and kettles are much missed. From a godless woman married to an atheist Yorkshireman, I salute you in your quest to become a USC sans references to divinity, and in riling up those who deserve it.Posted Image


Dear Elmcity - bet you can't believe I am still here and batting !

Actually, in my delusional way I think I will be an asset to the U.S. as I very gently suggest a few concepts that they won't meet on a day to day basis - and having one's thought glands stimulated can never be a bad thing. My wife says I should call myself a rationalist or something before I get lynched - but I am hoping that staying out of the South should keep my hide intact. What caliber gun would Jesus use on me ? He was into red wine and free health care according to need - like me - so I think we would have hit it off.

This was a discussion on a very simple factual thing but because politics and religion were on the margin, they inevitably made their appearance, so it took longer to get the answer

Actually, when I was 19 and in the Police Force, I used to affirm when I gave evidence. It was a brand new experience for the court. Their worships actually tended to believe me more as a man of conscience, rather than those officers who were quite happy to swear to god and then stretch the truth (lie)(fit em up)


Trouble in the US is that everyone has their politics/religion packaged for them. Atheists must be pacifists and vote democrat etc etc. Here is me just as willing to kill people for the US as any good Christian, and I am a member of a gun club in a 100% extreme Republican area and I have 4 rifles and 3 pistols ! In other words I beat my own path through life and I don't ask to be supplied with an identikit set for my politics/religion. A stubborn independant individualist who carries his ethics with him and doesn't have em handed to him by those in authority - in other words - what a good American is supposed to be.
I am pretty happy in the US now - I like the constitution, El Presidente, and I like the government and the taxes are fair.
I have a lot of evangelizing to do before the other 300 million think like me, but apart from that, the 8 inches rain per annum compares well to Darwen Lancashire, (our last stop in the UK from which we are emotionally scarred)

Actually there is so much of the US that reminds me of Britain in the 50's. At school we were taught that all those red patches on the globe were given to us by god under the stewardship of her majesty. She spoke directly with god every day (after tea) and acted as some kind of CEO for his organization on earth. She had literally been chosen and placed there by god. We were told that Britain was the finest country that had ever existed in the history of the world, (sounds like mitt romney) and that we lived in the finest County (Yorkshire) in the finest Country, England, as part of the finest Nationality (British) and that white people were infinitely superior to all others - the others were indolent because it was so warm where they lived and they couldn't be bothered working ! It's hard to believe, but we were taught VERY racist sea shanties in music class by an elderly spinster music teacher. If I sang them in a pub now I would be jailed and I would deserve it

ok they don't do racism in American schools, but much of the 'we are the chosen ones' is the same as Britain in the 50's and look where it got them.

Then I went to 'Primitive Methodist' chapel and boy were they primitive - they hauled me out at age 9 and made me foreswear strong liquour and easy women. I did of course, but I broke that oath too (eventually, not at 9). No hope for me in the fiery pit, but at least it doesn't rain there.

Anyway, all this stuff belongs in the other chat forum so I will sign off now - on the side and satified - VJ is a magic place with super members - love it
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-13 18:18:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

One of the things I like but this country it the 1st Amendment and with that we all know you have the right to freedom of religion. So if you choose to not say the words “So help me God” than you don’t have too and no one is going to come after you for it or try to take away you citizenship. Simply tell the officer that you interview with that you will not be saying the word “God” during your oath due to your religious beliefs.

No, there are not going to give you a special card to read the oath from and they are not going to let you take the oath in another room or something because you are not going to say god. You just repeat what they say and when they say God you don’t say anything. It is up to you to make sure when they are going to say God and to make sure that you don’t say it by accident.

As for the other parts of the Oath, I would think long and hard before you take the Oath if you are NOT going to stand by what you are saying. If you don’t want to say God and then you don’t have to, if you don’t want to fight then you don’t have to, but you do have to do non-combatant duties if and when required. However if you are going to renounce your citizenship when it becomes convenient for you, than YOU SHOULD NOT BE TAKING THE OATH.


Interesting viewpoint. I don't mind fighting for the U.S. (In the gimmer corps)- I could even guide an assassination drone over Pakistan - that would be fun cos I used to have a model aeroplane and it doesn't sound dangerous (to me)

Many men and women get married and take an oath which is forever. They then change their mind and get a divorce. Many people in that position refuse to break their oath and don't get a new partner until the divorce is final.

I equate marriage and citizenship as far as keeping the oath until freed from it.

Nobody gets married thinking they will divorce. Nobody gets citizenship thinking they will have to renounce it.

Convenience should not be confused with principle and I am sure David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) would renounce his British Citizenship if the UK carried out a sneak attack on the U.S. - and quite rightly too. I would do the same if I were a US Citizen living as a British Citizen in the UK.

These matters need to be thought out by putting oneself in other people's positions, but that is an ability that only comes with age if at all.

Anyway I think I have my info - 300 people mumbling away and most of em can only write 3 sentences in English. I simply don't refer to God and nobody will notice. If it's like that then that's ok. If I get an officer who lip reads, I will tell him I was speaking in tongues.

Edited by saywhat, 13 May 2010 - 04:06 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-13 16:04:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod
My god it's a good job I wasn't talking religion..just the ceremony

I would like to defend Philipanawife2010 as the majority of American citizens believe that aliens have no rights. I think this comes from people entering on visa waiver etc where you actually sign that you waive your rights to appeal against deportation.
Washington State had a law that aliens could not own guns and I was part of the lobbying against that. Me and the NRA and a billion others got the Washington Supreme Court to drop that in July 2008 as the 14th amendment says that everyone has the same rights under the Constitution. It was meant to make non citizens such as black people, equal - but had the side effect of authorising my Glock and my 1943 Lee Enfield made in Maltby, Yorkshire.

Anyway, about this ceremony thing....
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-13 15:19:00
US Citizenship General DiscussionGod

I'm just curious. If you are so intent on keeping or protecting your British citizenship, why are you seeking naturalization in the US? I for one find some, if not most of your witless banter offensive as an American citizen. Yes we talk smack about our president, and about idotic American policies, but we have the right to do so under the First Ammendment because we are US citizens, you haven't even been ALLOWED the privelege to obtain that right yet. Being a US citizen is not a right, it's a privelege, and I think using a public forum, which is hosted, and whose membership consists of 90% US Citizens as a way to mock our procedures and policies is testament to the type of "Americans" you will be.


Never mentioned protecting my UK citizenship ! This post isn't about that.

Excuse me but I think perhaps your resentment is based on a religious thing you have ? I am entitled to be unreligious both now and when I become a citizen, and I am simply asking about the procedure at the ceremony.
Keeping atheists out of the country is no part of the constitution - I have learned that much from the 100 questions.
Anyway it's too late for you - Bill Maher is already here.
I tend to be light hearted in the way I express myself and I belief that this is also an inalienable right although it isn't written down anywhere yet.
I repeat that I am not interested in discussing serving in the military or religious views or anything else - it's a fact finding exercise about the ceremony

There will be many Americans who will welcome me into the country and tolerant enough to rub shoulders with people of any religion or none. That is why the country was set up.

I like your President who has Yorkshire roots like me. I like his government. I like their policies. It sounds like I am more supportive of the American president and government and policies than you are. Perhaps you don't belong any more ?

Anyway, let's keep it factual and not get side tracked
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-05-13 14:08:00