biggish data

QUOTE (Mags @ Sep 26 2007, 08:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did see Elvis in a chip shop once.

in 1917 two little girls in Cottingley, 5 miles from my house, said they had seen fairies dancing in their garden and produced photos..

The whole world believed them

Things don't change much

http://www.cottingle....uk/fairies.htm

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-26 14:52:00

back to the subject -

people should not believe what they read in the papers....

When I see the naiveté that people have, I wish I had been a double glazing salesman - I would have been very rich....

So you buy a little girl for $20 and then walk round in public in the sun with her on your back, grinning away and saying 'look what I bought'

and people kidnapped her to sell in Morocco to a peasant ? For how much ?

or Morrocan peasants holiday in Portugal and bring a kidnapped girl back through the airport ?

They can't even afford a decent donkey half of them...

come on folk show a bit of common sense..

jeez

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-26 14:42:00

QUOTE (willchels @ Sep 26 2007, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 15 2007, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Sep 15 2007, 04:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan, you continue to crack me up!!

Just how soon do you get here anyway?

Alan,
they said the exact same thing to Chelsea (altho was California serv center)

I am only half joking about going crazy- I am naturally a really happy chappy in all situations - annoyingly so for people who are not 'morning persons'. I grin and dance and sing - I am not bipolar either - its constant ! I really am normally happy.

and here I am with it all behind me including the medical last Thursday and only an easy peasy interview to go - and I feel deflated and sad and I cant get happy again.

So much hangs on these things you know. Carolyn could not have made it in the UK and if this had gone wrong we would have had to divorce and she would have had to go back. I think that was too much of a burden - too much of a worry and going on since 9th January.

I have a friend in the US who was similarly torn about and he still flinches and turns away at the sound of the INS. He has been there 12 years and the revulsion for this process is still with him.

Perhaps time will ease the stress and when I am driving through St Petersburg on a sunny Sunday morning in my new Toyota, I will feel back on form again.

For now I think I have a touch of post traumatic stress.

I will try and hang around VJ during the winter and see if I can help some folks out - we certainly need it....

alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-26 14:34:00

Devilette - What murder ?

You keep falling for the same mistake !

You are talking against yourself - my whole point was to say nobody knows and we should not judge - and now you tell me that I am not 'in the know'.. then you say say there has been a murder like you are in the know...

half the time you say nobody knows and then you make out like you do...

Of course I am not in the know but thats my point and you make it for me..

and I am allowed to judge your powers of 'reading and comprehension' if I supply you with a link and you come back and deny (and misquote) what is clearly on the page...

How come Mrs McCann can be judged for something she might not have done but you cannot be judged for something that you clearly have done.. (you still wont say you got it wrong and I was right)

As far as an agenda against priests is concerned, I think your horrified defence of them indicates that you have an agenda too ? am I right in thinking your defence comes not from an objective assessment but from some religious affiliation that you have not so far declared ?
Possibly not or you would feel guilty at misrepresenting the link.

ps reference the 30 year thing - I am 3 years younger than Debbie Harry and 17 and a half years younger than Clint Eastwood so there - who you say ? and just because I have forgotten more than you will ever know doesn't mean I am out of touch

All this is because you are frantically defensive about priests for some reason - and you tried to misquote my wiki link which ain't too bright because everyone can see it... even I would put my hands up if I had done that...

and you put a one word retort to my post which was 'sick'

If you don't like disharmony on the forum then you should explain your feelings in more than monosyllables so we know what is going on in your mind...

In case you think I am being argumentative - it was you who started tossing emotive epithets about...

Let's see what this weeks wild speculations (not mine) will bring regarding the case ... then you can kick that around with as much certainty as ever. Believing the last thing that was written in the paper and excusing your own credulity for believing the previous thing is not uncommon in this or any other country so you are probably more in the majority than I

alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-16 12:35:00

QUOTE (Caladan @ Sep 15 2007, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I certainly hope this isn't the paradigm of British policing. Say, it could have been a one-legged ballet dancer wearing a boa that killed the girl instead of the German basement dweller or the pedophile priest.

I am not surprised that the Portuguese police are questioning the parents for two reasons. Statistically, most murders aren't committed by strangers, and that goes double for children. Family is always the first stop.

Second, Portugal probably has an interest in calming hysterical tourists. If you arrest the parents, potential tourists think 'Oh, it's not the area that's dangerous, just the girl's parents.'

I totally agree with your last point and that crossed my mind too - it would suit the Portuguese to 'export' the problem.

One legged ballet dancer wearing a boa is tame compared to some of the stuff that happens in real life...

EEEEE I could tell some stories !

What about all the rippers victims - their families were not involved - bet that messed up the statistic for those years eh ?

Geoffrey Dahmer, Doctor Shipman ? If it's you then the statistic is 100%
alan

Edited by saywhat, 15 September 2007 - 12:43 PM.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-15 12:38:00

QUOTE (devilette @ Sep 15 2007, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 15 2007, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems that 33% of priests in the US are homosexual and 4 out of 5 attacks are on little boys so that would not present a significant risk to a little girl...and any way you know that it was a story which I declared to be a wild fiction to try and open up the possibility of other scenarios. As it happens, another scenario HAS now emerged but I won't hold my breath for people to say I was right and other scenarios are possible - and minds should not be made up on this case.

haha !

alan

http://en.wikipedia....olic_priesthood

Once again, not relevant. 33% is not what your wiki link quotes. It says 1-15%.

Drop it already.

Devilette your powers of reading and comprehension are seriously flawed - that stat you just quoted is the 'general population'

as far as priests are concerned it says this:

It has been estimated that at least 33 per cent of all priests in the RC Church in the United States are homosexual." [2]

Now pop back and have a really good look and then tell me I was right - come on you know you have to...

and check on this too:

More than four out of five of the priests' sex-abuse cases involved male victims.

Now if you are going to start catching biscuits properly then you have to keep your eye on them..

Here is me trying to open your eyes and you can't be bothered to read and comprehend the information that I am finding for you...

I am glad I had a wiki link to quote or you would say I was making it up - and even though I do find the link, you deny what it says even though it's there for everyone to see - you wouldn't make a good murderer with an alibi Devil - they would have you behind bars in 10 minutes

Or is it something else that's making you blind - 'non so blind as those who will not see' - nobody was prepared to listen to all those little boys - they wanted to change the subject - like you.

alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-15 12:25:00

QUOTE (Mags @ Sep 15 2007, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 15 2007, 03:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oops bad taste to reveal Sunday's story on a Saturday
alan

The News of The World is planning a lawsuit as I type!

they are never the sue- ers they are the sue-ees or if they are the sue-ers then its spelled 'sewers' ....

Perhaps she ate a hamster like Freddy Starre and choked...I don't know what they will come up with next...

I know one thing - I won't be surprised

last week the Police were reported to have accused the mother of breaking her neck...now it's administered or self administered (through parent's negligence) - sleeping pills..

next week ? they might get back to the other suspect - who is still a suspect.

How can they accuse one person of breaking her kid's neck while maintaining the status of the little chubby guy as a suspect ?

Bet he is cheesed off

I used to give mine a pat on the head and an aspirin each - worked a treat but they grew up with flat heads and stomach ulcers.

But I never let them hang around in the park or churches or other high risk environments - I was a good parent.

It seems that 33% of priests in the US are homosexual and 4 out of 5 attacks are on little boys so that would not present a significant risk to a little girl...and any way you know that it was a story which I declared to be a wild fiction to try and open up the possibility of other scenarios. As it happens, another scenario HAS now emerged but I won't hold my breath for people to say I was right and other scenarios are possible - and minds should not be made up on this case.

haha !

alan

http://en.wikipedia....olic_priesthood

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-15 11:21:00

QUOTE (rebeccajo @ Sep 15 2007, 04:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan, you continue to crack me up!!

Just how soon do you get here anyway?

Don't ask - just don't ask.... could be never at this rate....

and all the people who have NVC completed dates after mine think they are flying mid october.... oh dear the suffering humanity.

Carolyn found the letter from London Embassy dated last January which said 'We will not accept your petition as we regard you as TEMPORARY in the UK and your residence continues to be the U.S. and so you should file in Nebraska.

Then the NVC who say - your domicile is in the UK and you cannot be a sponsor unless you are domiciled in the U.S.

Can you wonder I went crazy some time ago ?

hee hee har har - to the funny farm, the happy home, where things are beautiful all the time and I'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats !!!!

I dont know how they check your sanity at the medical but I reckon their madometer will be off the scale !

ps this morning, the childs body is in the sea - with a broken neck or a drug overdose (depending on which paper you read) or perhaps it was a walk-in suicide ? oops bad taste to reveal Sunday's story on a Saturday

alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-15 02:58:00

'Police are said to want to examine the vehicle again. It is currently being kept in a safe place by the family who are considering having their own tests carried out on it as they strive to prove their innocence.'

Looks like the Police will have to be patient until the suspect's family say they can look at the car again ....

See what I mean ?

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-14 09:45:00

QUOTE (devilette @ Sep 13 2007, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 13 2007, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would still rather be me than some of these ladies so hah to them !

"Clement Attlee had as much charisma as a mouse. He was absolutely monosyllabic. People say conversation is supposed to be like a game of tennis, but with Attlee it was like tossing biscuits to a dog."

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 17:25:00

QUOTE (Logres @ Sep 13 2007, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You dont know when I was born and what I do, so it is you who are making assumptions now.

I don't think you need to be too acquainted with English law to recognise that someone is innocent in the eyes of the law, until proven guilty. As I think that this was the genuine point that you were trying to underline, I don't think that anyone involved in the discussion would disagree legally or morally.

That's fair enough...

Nope I don't know anything about you - - you might be the top criminal barrister in the Uk for all I know and outgun me all ways up !

Not many people older than me now so I WAS making an assumption - if you are as old as me - it's past our bedtime !

I do have an overdeveloped sense of justice which extends to more than myself - perhaps I will use it on behalf of others on a voluntary basis when/if I get to Florida...

Hey I could be a civil rights observer at guantanamo bay ! Nope skip that ... think I will start with the cats protection league and work up from there....

You know people say 'opinionated' and 'arrogant' and 'preaching' as though they are bad things ....

When you think about it, the opposite of those three isnt good either - no personal opinions/low self esteem/reticent and disengaged

I admire Tony Wedgewood Benn (dont always agree with him) and I reckon you could call him 'opinionated' and 'arrogant' and 'preaching' ...

If I had 30% of his intellect I would be most chuffed.

I get my bus pass in 6 weeks so its too late to reform or go for the middle ground - I will have to make the best of my personality disability for which I don't get a parking badge ! I would still rather be me than some of these ladies so hah to them !

alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 16:53:00

QUOTE (LisaD @ Sep 13 2007, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Focking hell, if that's 'gentle' I'd hate to see what else ya got.

If you had something to add, you could have done without the mad finger pointing sermonizing, much like that hobo on Oxford Street standing on his little wooden crate.

And I agree with Dev..the priest pisstakey bit was really in poor taste.

I have nothing against Catholics at all. I have been part of a Catholic family - but I didn't know it was beyond the pale to mention paedophile priests in a discussion on possible paedophilia ?
Is it a taboo for Catholics to talk about it ? If so I can understand why it went on so long....
Really I don't want to make an issue about it and if it's so hurtful for Catholics to think about this then I would like to drop it now.
I want to drop it anyway as I don't want to broaden it in a thread where it isnt central to the plot. If you say it never happened or you dont want to hear it then ok.

Remember Mrs McCann is a Catholic and I am fighting for her rights on here - albeit unsuccesfully- and even though she might be guilty.

As I say - you guys win - force of numbers - plenty to say about me but little to say about the subject

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 15:39:00

QUOTE (LisaD @ Sep 13 2007, 09:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 13 2007, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (PaulineA @ Sep 13 2007, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only "fairness" is investigating in to the cause of the little girls death. If that means questioning the parents, then so be it.

Who died?

tut tut, that's a one liner, Alan

Very occassionally I prefer the rapier to the bludgeon and sometimes the stuffed pillow. Another one liner - chuckle

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 15:22:00

QUOTE (Mags @ Sep 13 2007, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I gather from this post that it MUST be my post (or partially mine) that you are having a problem with. Because I had the audacity to say that something wasn't quite right about how she acted you seem to have taken issue with it.

Well, I stand by my comment and do not feel the need to apologise for it. Call it women's intuition, a mother's intuition...whatever. It's what I feel when I see footage of her and I can't change that. It's an opinion, MY opinion, that's all.

Not worth getting your knickers in a twist for.

I agree - but I was just trying to gently say lets have open minds and the roof came tumbling in !

I think people wanted a different kind of discussion - more whimsical

Mine was a mixture of comedy (attempted) with some deadly serious points and it was not on the menu for this post.

I never learn that VJ is not meant to be the Oxford Union debating society and 'heavy' views or surreal humour (attempted) are not wanted or appreciated or always understood ...

I do appreciate the lack of epithets though - you will know that most sites would have given me a whole load of horrible name calling and in the vj forums I frequent , that NEVER happens - so its a good crowd really and i do appreciate that...

ok well it seems to have become - should alan be excommunicated for mentioning naughty priests ? which is hijacking the thread - so I had better sit back on this one...

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 15:19:00

QUOTE (Logres @ Sep 13 2007, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 13 2007, 08:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (Logres @ Sep 13 2007, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What 'facts' have you actually added to the discussion?

Well I defined 'murder' for a start . People were struggling with the legal definition of what constituted murder so I provided it - did you miss that ? Why ? I put it in red for you ....

So you did, although I think to be more precise English law defines murder as '.....unlawful killing......'. I highlighted the word that you missed out in red.

If you want to talk legal defintions I can do that - I was selected for the Bramshill fast track academy in 1969 and came 4th in the UK Police Inspector's exams probably before you were born so I would love to indulge you in a debate on homicide case law etc - but I won't.. It's your loss as you might have learned something without having to google it...

Devillette still can't see the relevance of all that to a discussion on a possible murder - perhaps a postman might bring more to the discussion ? or a Devilette whatever she does ?

She selects my post line by line and puts her 'judgment' on each line in red then finishes by calling me judgemental -irony indeed

If I have riled someone by including a catholic priest in the wild scenario then you would have to have a totally closed mind to say that doesn't happen ! It's been all over the media for years and the church is paying huge millions in compensation.

That is just pure denial.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 15:07:00

ok people - we live in a democracy (tyranny of the majority) so I guess you win.

I hope the cameras are never pointing at YOU

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 14:48:00

QUOTE (featherB @ Sep 13 2007, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 13 2007, 03:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The people attacking the home of a 'paediatrician' sums it up...

Yes, everyone knows about that very famous incident - quite why you're bringing it up to chastise people for having such very poor taste as to allow themselves to wonder about, and question, what we're being told about this case... nope, I don't know. Oh yeah, that's right, everyone on this thread was in danger of trying to get a lynch mob of some sort together, that was it - until you came along to set things straight.

You mention people on this thread having 'closed minds'. Why would that be?

Because the drum I am banging is that there is far too little information (evidence) for US to go on and it's not fair or productive to start examining every little movement in the mother's face and saying something about her 'is not quite right'
That is my one and only point.

If you find that unacceptable then that will demonstrate a closed mind (to me at least)

If I was accused of killing my kid I would be twitching like Frank Spencer on cocaine withdrawal and I would be grinning and crying and dribbling and laughing and screaming - a total mess up - thats what people do.

It aint fair to come to conclusions over her expression - it just isnt fair

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 14:43:00

QUOTE (Logres @ Sep 13 2007, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What 'facts' have you actually added to the discussion?

Well I defined 'murder' for a start . People were struggling with the legal definition of what constituted murder so I provided it - did you miss that ? Why ? I put it in red for you ....

Edited by saywhat, 13 September 2007 - 02:34 PM.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 14:33:00

QUOTE (devilette @ Sep 13 2007, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For the millionth time, no has said they are guilty. Stop twisting the words.

If I could be bothered I would go and cut some quotes from the start of this thread but I can't - they are there to be seen.

I tell you this though - I was a 'REAL' detective for 6 years from 1969 and a prerequisite for that job is a very open mind because real life is much weirder than any fiction you or I could write.

Whenever I see closed minds and feeble accusations and assumptions based on personal demeanour and pure wrong facts (the blood was in the car they hired before the event) - it makes me despair of the mentallity of the general public. I know vj IS the general public with all it's variations so it is to be expected.

The people attacking the home of a 'paediatrician' sums it up...

Go check out the first few posts if you don't believe me.

Travelling 4,000 miles to America will not broaden some people's minds by a millimetre...

It will broaden their bottoms though

this is not aimed at you by the way - I dont think you made the posts that rattled my cage...alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 14:29:00

QUOTE (devilette @ Sep 13 2007, 07:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Sep 13 2007, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scenario 2

Knowing they were devout catholics and had attended mass there, the local priest stopped by to invite them to an event at the church. This man had been a priest in New York but his paedophile activities had been so blatant, and with the class action pending, the church in the U.S. sent him back to his native portugal where, it was felt, he would be under closer scrutiny from his fellow countrymen.

Seeing Maddy, he simply fell to the temptations which had always dogged his career and he took her.

The smell of rotting meat that the dog detected was actually a leberwurst that a german guest had left under his bed before the McCanns moved in. The cleaner had removed it the day before. The blood on the wall was caused by the priest's long nails scratching her arm as he took her. The blood in the car boot is a false match caused by contamination of the sample and the extreme heat in the boot and belonged to a Glasweigan called Jim who rented the car before them and had nicked his finger on a beer bottle cap

Maddy is currently kept in the vaults below the church and the priest does not know what to do...

Now who's mocking it all? Sick.

Dont start name calling - its not vj style - if I am factual you dont like it, and if i indulge in wild speculations to show you a wider world, you dont like that either.

Seems that only snide shots at the McCanns are acceptable in this thread and any other posts will result in name calling

ok well its up to you to make the rules apparently, but I tell you what - if I were a moderator I would pull the gratuitus accusations against the McCanns long before I pulled alan's (my) posts...

I think some posters here should stop and think 'what if' they are not guilty - can you imagine what they would feel reading some of the accusations on here ? I bet they would find my wild speculations more acceptable - especially as they were invented in order to try and open some closed minds around here..

My obviously wild scenarios made to prove a point will be far less sick than the 'she looks guilty' stuff if they do turn out to be innocent - we will see who is 'sick' then !

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 14:05:00

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 13:38:00

ok let's speculate

She could have been snatched by a fat guy aged 40 with green teeth and wearing a greasy vest. This guy has never had a girlfriend and his mother (who he always lived with) is a desicated shell in a rocking chair up in the loft.
His mother never let him have playmates so he just wanted a little girl to play tiddly-winks with...
She misses her mother but is otherwise fine

He will get caught out when she asks for a doll and he goes to the village on his donkey to buy one...

At this stage, this is as likely as any other speculation

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 13:07:00

QUOTE (PaulineA @ Sep 13 2007, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only "fairness" is investigating in to the cause of the little girls death. If that means questioning the parents, then so be it.

Who died?

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 12:50:00

QUOTE (devilette @ Sep 13 2007, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan, if you posted complete thoughts in complete sentences, it might make for a better debate.

What don't you understand devil ? How can I make it clearer ? I don't post one sentence and sit back like some.

The last two posts that were not mine have been 'one liners'. Who else is debating ?

The thread was getting distinctly 'big brotherish' and needed some law and facts and concepts of fairness injecting and that's what I did.

I go into my reasons... you know, fairness etc ?

It's a bit rich to be accused of doing 'incomplete sentences' in one sentence by one of the single sentence contributors !

If you want to go back to 'she only shed one tear today and that's not normal' then fine carry one in that vein but it isnt much of a debate (in my opinion). I promise not to contribute to it coz I don't watch soap operas ..alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-09-13 12:44:00

QUOTE (robinklake @ Aug 27 2007, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Aug 27 2007, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anyway, yes I was scared of US dentistry costs as I thought they might take a K off me if I lost a crown - but apparently it isnt any more than the UK and so I am quite prepared to believe its often cheaper...

Oh I'm not sure about that! I had a terrible experience with an NHS dentist so went private the last time I needed treatment in the UK. I had a crown put in for 200 English pounds. My husband recently got a crown put in over here in the US - $600. Maybe his was some sort of ultra-platinum deal or something but it definitely was more. This also did not include the initial $7000 estimate to bring his English teeth to standards acceptable to the American dentist.

$7k for nashers ! jeez, I think I would spend that on a nice motorbike and gum it through my remaining years....

The salary of dentists plus liability insurance must be driving up prices - plus the demand of everyone wanting that special 'sparkle'...

Different standards indeed ! I can believe it.

I knew a lady in Colorado who insisted on showing me her teeth when they had just been done - they were fantastic teeth but she opened her mouth wide and pushed them as close to my eyes as possible so I could admire them... They were absolutely perfect ! Never seen nashers like that outside the US. It was like being attacked by a hungry grand piano . If thats the only culture shock I am going to have then I will be ok but I was quite taken aback

7k ? hum, 7k = 3500 gbp -- at £3 for fish and chips thats say 1167 times fish and chips - 52 weeks in a year - thats free fish and chips and mushy peas every friday for 22 years !

and you dont really need teeth to eat em... or a pint of Timothy Taylor's fine championship ale every friday night for 30 years !

Now do I want to sit at home for 30 years flashing those sparkling tussy pegs and making the cat blink, or go down the black bull and get my free pint for 30 years...

its all decisions

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-27 17:16:00

QUOTE (Lansbury @ Aug 27 2007, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Aug 27 2007, 12:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At least as a Brit, if you needed a new ticker or something and your insurance company finds a way of ducking out, and wont pay a quarter mill, you can always come back to the UK and get fixed up. I have seen posts about the immorality of that, ( a lot of moralising goes on) and they say I should volunteer to stay in the U.S and lose my home and pension and savings in those circumstances. However, my past dealings with the NHS are miniscule and I have been paying into the system since 1964 so I am due a few sticking plasters I reckon....

I think we are of a very close age and I'm with you on that one. I've paid my NI since I was 17 for 42 years and whatever I might need from the UK health system I have more than contributed for.

Wondered why you talked so much sense - you are an old git like me !

actually we are a heck of a lot younger than clint eastwood and I am many years younger than mick jagger and even younger than david bowie so some fresh fruit and veg in florida and all that health care provided by my young wife's employers should keep me bugging people for some decades yet hopefully - unless I get shot for suggesting that the earth is more than 6,000 years old -oops there I go again.

Alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-27 15:44:00

QUOTE (TracyTN @ Aug 27 2007, 08:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok - I think I see what you were getting at now about the NHI. Interesting about the sole trader bit - thanks for the explanation. Too bad hubby was so honest (17 years self employed)! Could have saved himself a ton of $!!

I think the prescription deal is great - wish we had it!!! But even though its WAY reasonable, its still not free. That point seems to be lost on those who want to talk about why we here should have 'free' healthcare - they seem to conveniently forget stuff like that which makes it not free.

I'll be curious to hear your take on costs for dentistry here vs. private in the UK. My hubby can't get over how cheap his first cleaning + 5 xrays was here in comparison to what he would have paid for it in the UK -- and his was even a NHS dentist.

Firstly I was horrified when Carolyn told me the routine manner in which dentists do x-rays in U.S. We are very strictly rationed when it comes to x-rays coz they cause cancer. We have lifetime limits and doctors/dentists are loathe to do em. My cousin died of jaw cancer (60 fags a day not xrays) . Freddy Mercury died of only 1 ** a day... no no thats digressing

The dentists here have lead aprons and all that stuff and are really scared about it. She has xrays all the time for routine checkups in the U.S.... big difference - I will try and avoid that. At least we don't need a night light in the bedroom with all those glowing teeth.

Anyway, yes I was scared of US dentistry costs as I thought they might take a K off me if I lost a crown - but apparently it isnt any more than the UK and so I am quite prepared to believe its often cheaper... The surgery building and all the equipment and the dentists car and petrol are all going to be half the UK price or less for a start - so the salaries can be double and still end up cheaper.....

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-27 15:19:00

QUOTE (TracyTN @ Aug 27 2007, 08:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Aug 27 2007, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (Lansbury @ Aug 27 2007, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Aug 26 2007, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes that is one thing I am concerned about in the U.S. - most people say the standard is very good but there is always that nagging doubt that because it is a business with a profit motive, there will always be a tendency to over treat the problem...
My wife says it doesnt work like that and the doctors in the U.S. are motivated by service to the patient (like the UK) rather than money - I will have to find out through experience

I found quite a reasonable chap, he certainly didn't come across as being out for the money. In fact he said given my medical history we wasn't going to get rich on me.

Thats good - Carolyn is usually right about these things. I suppose the problem comes if you get injured a couple of thousand miles away from home and you don't know the ropes in that area...
Anyway we intend to get good health insurance as she will be unemployed at first. I will go for a really high deductible like $5k or even $10k as that cuts the premium right down...

At least as a Brit, if you needed a new ticker or something and your insurance company finds a way of ducking out, and wont pay a quarter mill, you can always come back to the UK and get fixed up. I have seen posts about the immorality of that, ( a lot of moralising goes on) and they say I should volunteer to stay in the U.S and lose my home and pension and savings in those circumstances. However, my past dealings with the NHS are miniscule and I have been paying into the system since 1964 so I am due a few sticking plasters I reckon....

It's nice to have that backstop as they will pauper you in the U.S. if you are not insured (or if your insurance wriggles out of it)...

Isn't it strange that Carolyn can come to the UK and get free NHS cover on landing even though the UK govt didnt require a medical ?

If she had had a very expensive uninsured health problem she would have found a great solution to it coming here....

As it is, she has made no calls on them, partly because the U.S. health industry makes sure that the NHS is seen as a very bad idea and 'they give you an aspirin and send you away'. She is saving any routine stuff until she is back in the US even though she will have to pay because of what she has heard about the NHS before coming here.

The NHS is pretty bad in some areas but its not bad for free ! Remember it is free - even if you have never worked - its free - paying NHI is not required to get free treatment.

Ok I will give the US doctors the benefit of the doubt as far as profiteering is concerned - but I will get an estimate all the same !

But doesn't paying the NHI make it NOT free? (Unless you are one of those who does not pay?)

Plus I know you pay out some for prescriptions (though not much usually) and dentists? So NOT free!

Well as I say , if an American comes to live here as a resident and falls down the steps as she gets off the plane in Manchester, she is entitled to free treatment open ended, no lifetime limit, no limit for that incident or that condition. This is despite the fact that she never paid a penny into the NHS. NHI is more like general taxation in that there is no contract where not paying insurance unentitles you to treatment. If as a sole trader, you defrauded your NHI bill for 10 years, you would still get free treatment as there is no connection, no contract, no link. Prescription charges are £6 something flat rate even if the drugs cost one thousand.

If the al queada guy who tried to blow up glasgow airport had lived, he could have had 2 years free treatment for his burns without his assets being touched ... now there is a thought...

Dentists are a mess and even me, as tight as I am goes private now. So I will probably pay the same for dentistry in the US unless I want one of those blindingly white hollywood smiles they all have on TV...

Edited by saywhat, 27 August 2007 - 02:52 PM.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-27 14:52:00

QUOTE (Lansbury @ Aug 27 2007, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE (saywhat @ Aug 26 2007, 09:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I found quite a reasonable chap, he certainly didn't come across as being out for the money. In fact he said given my medical history we wasn't going to get rich on me.

Thats good - Carolyn is usually right about these things. I suppose the problem comes if you get injured a couple of thousand miles away from home and you don't know the ropes in that area...
Anyway we intend to get good health insurance as she will be unemployed at first. I will go for a really high deductible like $5k or even $10k as that cuts the premium right down...

At least as a Brit, if you needed a new ticker or something and your insurance company finds a way of ducking out, and wont pay a quarter mill, you can always come back to the UK and get fixed up. I have seen posts about the immorality of that, ( a lot of moralising goes on) and they say I should volunteer to stay in the U.S and lose my home and pension and savings in those circumstances. However, my past dealings with the NHS are miniscule and I have been paying into the system since 1964 so I am due a few sticking plasters I reckon....

It's nice to have that backstop as they will pauper you in the U.S. if you are not insured (or if your insurance wriggles out of it)...

Isn't it strange that Carolyn can come to the UK and get free NHS cover on landing even though the UK govt didnt require a medical ?

If she had had a very expensive uninsured health problem she would have found a great solution to it coming here....

As it is, she has made no calls on them, partly because the U.S. health industry makes sure that the NHS is seen as a very bad idea and 'they give you an aspirin and send you away'. She is saving any routine stuff until she is back in the US even though she will have to pay because of what she has heard about the NHS before coming here.

The NHS is pretty bad in some areas but its not bad for free ! Remember it is free - even if you have never worked - its free - paying NHI is not required to get free treatment.

Ok I will give the US doctors the benefit of the doubt as far as profiteering is concerned - but I will get an estimate all the same !

Edited by saywhat, 27 August 2007 - 02:25 PM.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-27 14:23:00

QUOTE (Leney @ Aug 26 2007, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a few NHS stories, and none are really that bad, and one happened because of a USA company the UK purchased supplies from lol (figures!)

My first experience with NHS was just bizarre. After living in the UK my hubby and I thought I was pregnant and he made me go to his GP. I only spoke to a nurse that day, but she was very thorough, asked a lot of questions, was very sweet. She had me give her a urine sample, and told me she'd call me later with the results. That seemed very odd to me, as I thought pee tests were instant, but didn't argue. We went home, called the office after waiting two days for a result to a pee test, only to be told it was negative. Honestly we just didn't believe it, at that point it was march, and I hadn't had my visitor since January. We went out that day, came home just in time to watch the news and there it was, first story: PREGNANCY TESTS RECALLED IN NORTHERN ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND DUE TO FALSE NEGATIVES - Tests provided by a USA firm have been giving false negatives and it has effected hundreds of women throughout Northern England and Scotland. We knew this was us lol Went back a week later and presto it was positive. They never admitted it was their mistake (or the tests mistake) but I did get quality care during my time there but I went back home to give birth.

In another experience, our youngest son has asthma, and while we were visiting Scotland for his first trip to meet his gran, he became very ill about 5 days before we had to leave. My mother-in-law took us to emergency, he was seen immediately by a doctor who I could not understand at all, I had to keep looking at my mother-in-law to translate, and she could barely understand her. He was admitted immediately there were no xrays, no blood tests, nothing I have seen doctors do in the USA when I've rushed him to the ER. No blood oxygen monitor on him constantly. I thought we were getting substandard care from the start (because I had a preconceived notion of how it "should" be) A nurse came in, gave him several breathing treatments in a row, and he finally was able to rest. We were in a room with maybe 12 other children and their parents. He was given breathing treatments all night long (not with a nebulizer as they do in US hospitals, but with an inhaler and spacer) The next morning he was exhausted but his breathing was wonderful. They wouldn't discharge him until late the next evening, but he only had to spend one night in the hospital. I had a similar experience in the USA, they kept him in for 4 days and 3 nights and he was hooked to tubes, machines, and needles the whole time. After getting over my initial #######, I realized the care he was given in the UK was a little less invasive, and much less traumatic for him, with the same end result - Plus even though he didn't have an NHS card, they said it would be free as his father was a UK citizen, and he didn't have to apply for a card or number, it would be taken care of without paper work. *shock*

Edited by saywhat, 26 August 2007 - 11:01 AM.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-26 11:00:00

I took the added precaution of marrying a young American who wants to work until she drops at jobs which carry full spousal health insurance - but it makes me feel sad for the rest...

just joking Carolyn in case you read this ! It was a happy coincidence ! kiss kiss

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-24 09:37:00

I can walk in and see my 3 lady doctors any morning without an appointment.

I can get fast free treatment for dangerous things like heart attack/stroke

Where the NHS is simply hopeless is all the things that ruin your life without being dangerous - say a hernia or depression ..

Then you have to wait months and months with your quality of life affected.

The U.S. health system is truly financially scary and the financial incentives for doctors to 'run up the bill' are disturbing - and for the insurers to walk away on a technicallity - but if it goes well then it's supposed to be great (generally speaking)

Neil Kinnock once said in a speech following the re-election of a Tory government: 'I warn you not to get sick. I warn you not to be old'.

I am just a young guy setting out in life and looking forward to my 60th birthday in November so I don't need to worry about U.S. insurers not giving me a good deal as an immigrant (cough), but I will have to take care with arrangements in future

Edited by saywhat, 24 August 2007 - 09:27 AM.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-24 09:27:00

I guess the conclusion is that the NHS staff are like the soldiers serving in Iraq

Everyone supports the poor folk who bear the horror of the front line mess in Iraq and the NHS, but that does not mean we can't criticise the circumstances under which they are forced to work and demand changes...

We won't get them of course but that's democracy for you - is it better to die neglected on a trolley in a corridor under democracy or be quickly cured under say communism in cuba ?

Dont think too hard about it - you might become depressed and you know the waiting list for that.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-24 08:56:00

QUOTE (devilette @ Aug 22 2007, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had foot surgery in NYC in Jan 2003, on insurance. He messed up so he did it again in Dec 2003. FOR FREE.

I had a free surgery in the UK (to correct the bad US surgery) which took a few reschedules but it happened. My local GP would see me in quickly & was great.

I now have a lawsuit pending against the US doctor as my foot is permanently disfigured. Hubby spent 3 hours waiting with a disclocated finger in a US ER 3 weeks ago. Cost us a fortune too (not yet insured).

I prefer the NHS, thanks.

Dear Mrs Deville

Yes there are incompetent doctors all over.... and Dr Shipman murdered 215 patients on the NHS !

and Doctor Crippen was an American doctor - and we hanged him !

http://www.stephen-s.../dr_crippen.htm

So yes we can't say that the doctors are better or worse and they move between the countries anyway..

was hubby's dislocated finger in one of those 'free' ER places - the ones who send you a bill later - or was it an insurance jobby ?

I haven't figured out the system in the US totally but apparently the insurance companies wriggle out of the claim if you don't comply with their terms exactly.

Perhaps US Medicare people get a good deal as they will get paid out and won't be refused after they are a certain age - I will be one of those in 5 years if the USCIS/NVC/DOS don't give me a heart attack before then...

The NHS has rationing by age - so they say - I always note hearsay when I use it

alan

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-22 13:53:00

QUOTE (robinklake @ Aug 22 2007, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THe NHS has its problems (my experiences were always great) but is it necessarily better in the US? Well that depends on your coverage.

Robin and Tracy ? think I am suffering a nostalgia rash - might have to see the Doc !

For all I blast the NHS, If I need an uninsured heart transplant in the U.S. I will have to lose my house and wad or die - at least that won't happen in the UK and I AM taking it with me !

I am sure the U.S. system has lots of rogues too - luckily I can spot em most times

I only had private health once in the UK and the specialist said - 'I don't know if you have an appendix problem or not but I can take it out if you want'

I told him to go ahead as I had just seen an programme on antarctic explorers who have theirs out as a precaution as they will be cut off for 6 months - so I thought it was a bit of free maintenance. That guy was just running up his bill and I knew it and he knew it and it will be like that many times in the US I have no doubt. That private hospital was beautiful and I didnt want to leave but they threw me out after a couple of days.

In the UK the NHS incentive is to tell you to go away and in the US the incentive is to do lots of unnecessary stuff - take your pick. I don't like being ripped off , but waiting x months for what could be critical tests is not right either

The last time I needed MRI - I waited 8 months for an appointment and no you can't chose your specialist. When I got there I had to wait three hours. The waiting room was full but nobody in the room spoke English.

Look the issue seems to be whether all the success stories and nice experiences means that we should lay off criticizing the NHS.

If railtrack left the crossing gates open by mistake and 999 cars crossed safely and the last one was hit by an express train , would we say their safety standards were fine given the low number of problems ?

that is the NHS right now.

My wife has just pulled a chunk of onion out of my ear - I am getting desperate for cures to this ear problem that the Doc refuses to even inspect - and lost half the vegetable in my lug hole !

I repeat - you health workers should NOT be defending the status quo but making more noise than the patients about making sure the horror stories stop happening - it is not in your interests to paint a rosy picture because a lot of patients know what the reality is, and will go private and leave you with the addicts and alkis and attempt suicides and gunshot cases.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-22 12:26:00

I think the people who work in healthcare are great - I couldnt do it - I had two kids and never changed a nappy-it would make me gip !

BUT !!!

I think they are too close to the subject and have become used to the low standards of the NHS AS AN ORGANISDATION.

So they think they re doing ok when the doctor's patient only have to wait a couple of hours among all the bleeding, coughing patients who patiently wait and wait.

I am lucky enough to have an NHS dentist - recently a crown came loose and I was quoted 2 moths for an appointment.

I went private and was seen 1 hour after I came off the phone to the NHS - £50 and it was done.

This is not hearsay - this is my direct evidence

My dad went in for a varicose vein operation on his leg. They messed up the anti-blood clot procedure, sent him home and within 24 hours he was having mini strokes and then a heart attack. He died.

That is not hearsay

I dont WANT to hear about all the self congratulations about when things go right - I want the bad stuff to be STOPPED ! THAT is what is important !

My sister in law took her daughter to the Docs and the doc said the kid had flea bites and told the mother to look through the microscope at the teeth marks - two days later it was confirmed the kid had chicken pox !
That is not hearsay

Until the NHS staff realise that they will always bear the brunt of criticism because of the awful SYSTEM, and help to change that rather than being defensive about their own valuable role which everyone agrees is good, then nothing will change.
They have become used to low funding, horrible administration and incompetence amongst managers and they actually think it is ok and spend all their time pointing out the nice things and the times when things went great and all the happy smiling patients

THEY are not the problem so caste off those blindfolds

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-22 11:11:00

QUOTE (Mags @ Aug 22 2007, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I worked for the NHS for 8 years and admit it does have it's faults. However, when I've ever used the NHS I've had nothing but great experiences. Low wait times, good treatment and nice staff.

It really DOES depend on the NHS Trust you end up living near, and some of them are appalling, but there are just as many that are good and giving a good service out there. Don't label the entire NHS under one nasty banner, because it isn't all like that. There are TONS of excellent staff out there who put their hearts and soul into their jobs and it is nice if they could get a bit of appreciation for what they do sometimes.

It gets a bit much when they are constantly had a go at when all they are doing is the best they can.

Mags we are getting a bit off topic and hi-jacking this thread which is a bit naughty of us - I am sure non of us are having a go at the front line staff - just the NHS system which is awful and the administrators who collude in the falsehoods by taking castors off trolleys in corridors so they are reported as beds etc...

Lions led by donkeys as they said in the first war.

You are right about areas - I went into Leeds casualty at 2.30pm and was told I could not be seen until 8.30pm so take a seat - I went outside and drove to Harrogate 15 minutes - good afternoon, come in, sit down , have a coffee, I will go and bring a doctor ! All done and out in 15 minutes !

NHS staff good - administrators and politicians bad

Anyway I am sat here with a deaf painful left ear (10 days now) and my doctor refuses to see me until a week on Friday (31st) at 1.30pm - they want to know I have been pouring olive oil into my ear for 'at least 2 weeks' before they will see me . I know it is infected and not wax blocked.

Reports of how it really is don't get much more real than that - it's real to me right now

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-22 10:12:00

QUOTE (TracyTN @ Aug 22 2007, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think there's anything wrong w/ telling Americans if something in our culture is not to your liking. Its how you do it that is important. If my hubby says something like that, he says it more as an observation, not a criticism - because he knows I can't change it & its not my 'fault' (aside from the fact that I am likely to agree with his assessment!). Apart from that, it makes me view things with a completely new set of eyes - which is often a good thing.

I try my best to do the same when talking about things in England that I don't like. Except the NHS. Then its no holds barred for me.

I find the cultural differences very interesting and I am never opposed to hearing them. But as you said, I'm sure not all Americans are that way, so you'll just have to get to know them before going into it.

My hubby has also made a conscious effort not to say 'back home' when referring to England. He considers the US his home now, and is quite happy that it is. So he'll say 'back in England' instead. Mind you, I would not be offended if he DID say 'back home', as that is where he's from after all!!

TracyTN well well - sounds like you and I are on the same track ! The NHS is a mess - my mother was on a trolly in a corridor for 24 hours at age 90 - then they took the castors off and redesignated it 'a bed' thereby allowing tony blair to grin with target achieving success.

Yes I am going to follow your hubby's tactics and never say 'back home'. I am going to really burn my boats this time and by xmas, the U.S.A will be my permanent home.

I once read an article which said that the UK culture was far closer to any European country than the USA despite the language. I have been trying to explore that ever since because I am very interested in whether that is true. My wife claims to be 'very much a liberal' but her view on state supported single mothers etc is half the atlantic to the right of any UK or European politician. Most VJ people are very young people under 30 and they may have travelled, but they need another 30 years of living to put it all in context.

I think my wife will not be able to put her UK experience into context until we go back to the U.S. and she can chew it over.
Last weekend she was touching the cannon ball holes that Oliver Cromwell left in Stirling castle in 1651 and next week we will be revisiting the castle of alan the red, nephew of william the conqueror and built in 1080. On Monday we were in Glencoe and she saw mountain sights you can't see in Colorado even. I think she will remember seeing that depth of history and even miss it - a bit. Perhaps her memories of the UK will grow fonder.

We will see. I won't be allowed to immerse myself in the American culture fully as I wanted to buy a really big gun and kill some burglars and commies and people who won't co-operate with the next war - especially illegal immigrants who have not gone through this immigration process like me - but she won't let me. I also need a big gun to protect myself from the US government if it goes left wing, and the British re-colonisers apparently. I am getting naughty now so I will sign off

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-22 08:38:00

QUOTE (TracyTN @ Aug 21 2007, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow Alan - I'm surprised to hear you say a lot of that ! I remember your arrival in the US and how you thought it was all so terrible.

Kind of comforting that the UK is at least the same - or in most instances, worse!

Travel broadens the mind - I am always learning and always ready to change my thoughts on something if it's the result of experience. Seeing an American doing it in reverse brings a whole new perspective.

Of course I am only talking about administrative affairs, so I will still find some aspects of the American culture that are not to my liking (like constant references to bottoms and the product of bottoms, and shoving things in bottoms). Even then, I think that as a 'guest' in America, I should save it for when I am talking with non - Americans in private.

I don't think that I should express a public opinion on anything while I am a 'guest' in America - and I should not fall into the trap of saying 'back home its like this' to everything I observe. I know there are many intelligent and broad minded, thinking people in America so I might let my guard down but only when I trust them.

If people ask, I will be careful not to say anything that could be seen as negative. My wife calls England a 'third world' country, and derides many aspects of it. She asked me if we celebrated 4th July and seemed sorry for us when I said we didn't.

A bit like if I was in the Sudan and I saw a 12 year old girl being mutilated by other women. As a visitor and a 'guest', I have no right to criticize that culture so I would just have to put cotton wool in my ears so I can't hear the screams.

My friend has been in the U.S. with his wife and 2 kids for 12 years - he said it was easy for him because he was a self confessed 'shallow' person and just wanted the sun and cheap cars and cheap gas and cheap speed boat. Perhaps there is a survival clue there.

Captain Oates

Male

England

2007-08-22 02:42:00