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United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I prefer the clinical term "Limey #######." :mellow:


Flattery will get you everywhere young lady - and I mean everywhere


Why be difficult, when with a little effort, you can be downright impossible haha ! (L)

I know it's Alan that used the term first, and it's pretty obvious that he's a Brit, that's the whole point of this thread isn't it?

However, I'm fairly sure that US law, USCIS, etc refer to non-USC as aliens, or am I mistaken?


I don't mind being called an ALIEN - after all they come from advanced cultures where we don't have the technology to go
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 14:34:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I'm sure the bolded portion is pointed at us. I thought we were actually doing that quite well, namely Lisa was - until you started having a go at her which is when all of this deteriorated.

It wouldn't be very wise of me to pin any alien as the 'enemy', particularly a British one, seeing as I'm married to one and bearing the next generation.

But you've made it pretty hard to want to be warm and fuzzy to, Alan. Let's at least agree to call that spade a spade.


I call it as I see it and that makes some people very warm and fuzzy with me whether they agree or not. On this subject, my opinions are really those of the 450 million people of Europe who have authorised me to speak on their behalf.

I realise that as the messenger and bearer of their sentiments, I have to take the load of rabid nationalistic Americans on behalf of all Europeans and I hope they appreciate it.

Others only work on warm and fuzzy and their lives slide by without them thinking about any of these issues in depth - until their Nationalistic glands get tickled and then it's like a BP explosion while listening to every FOX contributor talking at once

Only country with free speech indeed - get real
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 14:20:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I put it to you that if you think 'Exceptionalism and Nationalism' is 'the norm', maybe you are basing your assumptions and stereotypes on the people you are associating with; and painting everyone else here with the same brush......?

I first came across Americans in volume in the early 80's when I became European Finance Director for an American company based in Georgia. It took minutes before I was informed that the way things are done in the US and everything about America is superior to anywhere else in the world.
I have had an unlimited business visa since then and I made hundreds of visits - some of them via Concorde for two day meetings.

I have mixed with people all over Europe and received their opinions on the culture of the US in their eyes. My opinions are not just mine but a mix of others thoughts.

I have met Superb Americans. Clever Americans. Compassionate Americans, highly educated Americans, gentle quiet Americans - and had my life saved by an American in Saudi Arabia - literally.

It's a pity therefore that one aspect of American culture is it's inability to even discuss ONE shortcoming of the USA with an ALIEN, but rather to immediately brand them as the enemy and close ranks.

The Brits are seen worldwide as snotty etc etc and the Americans are regarded worldwide in a certain way as well. To deny this or say it's just me, is simply to hide one's head in the sand.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 13:54:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

So likewise, when Jezza aggressively questions a politician on Newsnight ("answer the question!")he should be more deferential to their qualifications and how long they have worked at a job?

So likewise, when Jezza aggressively questions a politician on Newsnight ("answer the question!")he should be more deferential to their qualifications and how long they have worked at a job?


At least they are one on one, not 600 to 1 - and he is not sat 10 feet above them reminding them they are on oath. At least they can be aggressive back. This is like watching someone with their arms tied behind them and a gag in their mouth being beaten by a mob - every one of whom claims to be a devout follower of Christ. Sickening.

double post


yes the vj server gets slower every day
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 12:37:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

May I join you? It's only 9.30am here but I could do with a drink and some rampaging.Posted Image


yippee ! you even got it in the right order !
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 12:29:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

More flags than St. George crosses during the World Cup - I find that hard to believe! :jest:


I'm not saying that's not true, but what I get from a lot of what Alan says is that Americans are the sum of our worst stereotypes which he bring up again and again. If you go looking for them, you will find them, but you risk losing out on a lot of what makes America unique and special (and I mean that in a non-exceptionalist, non-nationalistic way)

It's absolutely true that there is a drinking culture in England and it can sometimes has dire social consequences. Drinking is even more common than flags on American streets. Should outsiders reduce to its worst cultural stereotypes? They would miss out on a lot if they did.


Lot of truth in that - I really dislike the council house culture in England, though I lived in a council house for 10 years while I was doing my professional qualifications.

I would do everything I could to steer American tourists away from those areas as they embarrass me. So yes it's wrong to judge a country by the worst of it's citizens.

However, (wait for it), the scum in England is usually at the bottom of the barrel and is less apparent as one rises through society. The US has many absolutely deadly, menacing, violent, extreme right wing, overly nationalistic people right up there in the spotlight and involved in setting the direction of the country and the running of it.

In the US, the scum and the cream rises to the top .

I was just watching telly and the BP CEO being grilled. It was like our house in that the Americans couldn't understand him as he spoke in quiet measured sophisticated English tones whereas they were shouting and name calling like a bunch of blood lustful baboons out hunting. Getting one guy there with hundreds of people forming a crow's court around him, refusing to hear his full answers and saying things like 'from what you know, anybody in this room could do your job'. Berating him in turns and not allowing him to defend himself. He has worked in the very senior management of BP for 28 years and had a PHD in Geology and they treat him like some Mississippi field worker. Disgraceful - what power crazed nasty bullies.

jeez culture difference ? It's as big as the galaxy. My decision stays the same - I will take what the US has to give, and I will give back all I have to give - but as far as changing my personal culture over to thinking that this is ok - no way !
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 12:25:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

So that makes it true - because they say so?

Okay - just checking! :thumbs:


Tracy that proves my point - the fact that the US doesn't care what other people think and doesn't know where other countries are apart from a co-ordinate on a predator drone's gps system, means the US devalues every country in the world and doesn't care. That is the perfect definition of nationalism. That is why some people in some countries have set about trying to make the US care.

Edited by saywhat, 17 June 2010 - 11:13 AM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 11:13:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

The thing is, people get overly emotional when people criticize their country. If I were to take a step back and view what you said objectively, I would say you're completely right. The UK has a drinking culture that is unlike any other - it's not unusual to drink alcohol every day in different circumstances as to us, it's a social practice. We have more binge drinking than anywhere else in Europe. And we also take football extremely seriously. Put those together, and you get the stereotype about our violent hooligans. It wouldn't be fair to say that all British people are alcoholic hooligans, but there is an element of truth to it.

In the same way, most people around the world view Americans as extremely patriotic - not in the good way of being proud of their country - but in the ignorant and cocky way. And even though not every person is like that, there is an element of truth to that as well. Never in my life have I seen so many flags on a street, so many references to the country and its greatness, such a lack of awareness about the world, such a separation between laws and country, and I live in New England which is supposedly not so bad. Every time I hear someone over here saying that America is great for freedom, I always speak up and point out that there are plenty of other countries that have MORE freedom. The response is always to compare it with Middle Eastern countries, but there's nothing new there. Canada, every country in Europe, Australia, NZ, Japan, etc... these all have the same freedom (if not more), yet the only country that boasts about this is America.

I'm not trying to put Americans down, and there's nothing wrong with being patriotic. But there is a difference in being proud of your country, and being ignorant to other ones, and I think the concept of America to most around the world is that they have issues with the second. Whether you take that stereotype as valid or not is up to you. Excuse me while I go back to my vodka and run through the streets screaming with rage at England's performance last week. :lol:


What a beautifully poised and balanced and elegant post. I couldn't have said all that without having a poke or doing a bit of acidic commentary. It has to be correct because I know that it's the view that people have all around the world. Yes USA, compare yourselves to France and Germany and Sweden instead of Yemen and Somalia. You need to stretch yourselves by having a higher comparator. I hear all this about other countries not having free speech and I go "what?".
Any European who comes to the US is taken aback by the police with dark glasses and black uniforms and boots and threatening dispositions and the myriad of overbearing laws.

I have become used to it and it goes over my head now so it must not even register at all with natural borns - so no wonder that they don't see it - especially if they have never had a quiet Sunday morning in Hampshire (the Hampshire), watching the local bobby cycling by.

Of course the knee yerk reaction to this is 'So why stay'. I have become used to it and my partner is here and it doesn't rain as much and it's easy to park and the cars and houses etc are cheap. That's why I stay.

I just wish the nationalism could be toned down and it will eventually as more Americans become aware of the outside world and get an alternative view via the internet from posts like this. They may become more aware of the hostility of the outside world to naked nationalism following the second world war (1939 to 1945) and the first world war (1914 to 1918). It is a hostility to nationalism and not to the US as such.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-17 11:05:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles
:thumbs:

I still think people take citizenship way way too seriously. I take my US citizenship VERY lightly. I would swear allegiance to the Queen in a heart beat and not really mean it. In fact had I stayed another 2 years I would have no sweat. Its all about the taxes in the end, nothing else matters.

PS. If the world is really wanting to be at peace, Nationalism must DIE.


Best post yet. I am guilty of taking American citizenship too seriously. I can imagine how loyal they will be to me, so I will chill and do some numero uno stuff. :)

Edited by saywhat, 16 June 2010 - 07:10 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 19:10:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Honestly I think I'd hate to live where you live. I just don't see how you draw that conclusion, unless you're basing it solely on what you see around your microcosm or what's shown to you on television (or both). Well, at least not in the way you seem to portray nationalism - which is the idea that the US is the greatest country in the world, all others need not apply.


Oh come on Tracy - goto any country in europe, stop a passer by and say

A Which country is the most nationalistic
B which country thinks it is better than the rest

They are not going to say the isle of man

Edited by saywhat, 16 June 2010 - 06:58 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 18:57:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Alan, I have to say that I was quite surprised at some of the things you've said here. Happy Bunny stated her reasons several times for her beliefs, and they're fair statements too. Yet every time you responded to her, there were moments of aggression and accusations. Her general point was that she personally could never become a UKC because she feels her allegiance is with the US, and that she doesn't see how anyone can become a USC when they feel the same way about their home country. Americans DO become British citizens all the time. I only know of one personally, but I'm sure if you went to the US-UK equivalent of Visa Journey, you would find a forum dedicated to this there.

Personally, I'm still torn about whether or not to go for citizenship. I would like the benefits of avoiding USCIS forever, and returning to the UK without the worries of 'what if we move back'... BUT I'm a very honest person. I don't say things that I don't mean, and at this point in my life, I would find it hard to genuinely pledge allegiance to America. I'm here because I married an American and want to give it a shot in his country - and for that, I supply endless paperwork about my health and background, and will pay taxes while I'm here. Having said that, I'll always be British first and foremost, and I'll always have values that are probably considered 'working-class British' in comparison to over here. I guess I have a sense of patriotism myself and part of that goes deep into my beliefs. I'm liberal, and believe that everyone deserves health care, housing, education, and free thinking. I think everyone should live as they choose. as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I support gay marriage, the choice for abortion, pro-immigration, helping those that genuinely need it. I disagree with so many policies and attitudes in the US that making a promise to break my ties with the UK and 'side with America' would be distressing for me.

ETA: I guess my reasons are more political, and there are political aspects that I dislike about the UK as well, even though I'm a citizen there. Maybe I'll learn to separate the country with the policies in the next 3 years.


I relate to all those sentiments. I think this 'fitting in' goes in waves.
When I arrived here it was all big house, big car, big roads and sunshine - then all the stuff you mention comes to the fore and you get down and homesick. Then you get back on your feet and another 6 month goes past and you feel great. Then the wobbles come back.

Most of the young people on here have no idea what's ahead of them in the US when they want to retire. I retired at 54 and it was so easy. My wife can't retire at that age as her job supplies our health insurance. Imagine 10 years paying ones own health insurance at say $15k pa. We may have to go the UK if she wants to retire early (early for here)


I was too hard on bunny and I am sorry about that - but this place is really scary and I keep running across people who's attitudes are what we went to war against in 1939 and I mean that literally. (no not the bunny)

My friend has been here 15 years and says it's perfect for him as he is shallow. To a deep thinking immigrant from Europe, the politics and legalities and the lack of laws against hate speech and death threats etc has to be disconcerting. Chris Matthews was saying that the govt used to strong arm companies where the FBI would find out which executives were having affairs with their secretaries and threaten to expose them if the company didnt follow govt instructions ! The IRS would fix them up at the same time using falsehoods. He actually advocated those tactics against BP executives. NOT very BBC

I can't believe the stuff people can say under the guise of free speech - their feet wouldn't touch in the UK if they said they wanted to attack Parliament with guns - and water the tree of liberty with the blood of their countrymen and fellow citizens. 600,000 Americans killed by Americans in the civil war.

If a European didn't get a bit emotionally disturbed here, then they are not thinking people and not listening to what's going on. I reckon most of the BRITS on here who do survive all these assaults on their senses and become USC's will be a big gain to the US and the USC's shouldn't be so sniffy about whether we keep our red passports locked in our closets.

Edited by saywhat, 16 June 2010 - 06:55 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 18:53:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Sorry - I guess I must have missed that somewhere along the way. I do find it odd that she is unwilling to tell you her reasons though. Maybe she thinks having that discussion about her reasons would send the two of you into an argument she's not willing to have. Given what I've seen here - she's probably very smart for that! LOL

As far as Mitt Romney goes - that's his opinion. What that has to do with any of the rest of us and how we might feel, I'm sure I don't know. I think the US is a great country, but do I find it the end all be all? No.


Actually, I have just come back from the range after belting out a few magazines from my Glock in a very American style and I do respect her opinion. She (sorry 3rd party talk)says that she doesn't believe in Dual Citizens and would vote to ban it. That is clear and I respect her having that view.

As I got to the 4 way stop I thought about that. If the US said I had to choose, I would hand in my US passport (that I havent got yet)- but if the UK said it, I would hand in my UK passport. If they both said it, I would become French. If they said it too I would rip em all up and stay in my house.

I think the word allegiance is what we get hung up about. I am not talking about treason and all that stuff - more 'respect' for the country. When I see people of non indiginous ethnicity in the UK (sounds like Arizona talk), and I see them throwing litter out of their cars and parking where they want and with expired tax discs and shouting at indigenous women calling them vile names etc etc I see that as not respecting the UK. If they are UK citizens then I say they are not respecting their country. When I take an oath to the US, it only applies as long as I am a citizen - and during that time I will be a model citizen giving full respect to the laws of the US.

If the US are prepared to formally accept my resignation at a future time, then that releases me from my oath. As I can either be in or out, and as I am going to be 100% with the US while I am in, I can't possibly be treasonous or whatever while a citizen.

So I see bunnies point in a way and while I am a citizen I will be 100% US

Where I am sure we differ, is that I see it as a right given by the govt which can be renounced with the blessing of the govt and I will do it if my conscience says I must, whereas she sees it as more permanent than marriage. More like a religious oath which lasts to eternity and probably beyond

So in reality - I will have only one active citizenship at a time even though I have two passports.

I think the only problem is this war stuff that America is constantly engaged in. If it comes to a conflict, I would choose whose side I should be on and only have the passport of that country.

By the way, some people have the idea that this oath stuff should take precedence over EVERYTHING. In other words they will kill their relatives in a foreign country if ordered to do so. Let's say their mother for instance. I think that's barmy and anyone who does that is barmy (but so faithful to the oath so pin a medal on em ra ra)

I think the criticism should be reserved for those who are citizens of a country but work against that country while remaining citizens of that country. There are plenty of those.

If the UK asked me to spy on the US while a US Citizen, I would refuse. If the US asked me to spy on the UK while a UK citizen, I would refuse. Easy.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 18:07:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

You don't reckon "British only" policies point to a nationalism or exceptionalism similar to Mitt Romney's statements?


I dont know what the BNP believe but whatever it is they are tiny and rejected in the polls and in politics

Exceptionalism and Nationalism is not tiny in the US - more the norm
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 17:31:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

What do you think when Nick Griffith makes similar noises about Britain? He is an elected official in the UK, like Mitt Romney is (or was) here, but I don't believe his views color the nation as a whole.


Nick Griffith is strange charecter. Very intelligent and good at hiding what I reckon are his true views.

I reckon he is talking about preserving a little Britain that has gone and he is a racist. However, I don't think he will ever say that Britain is the finest country that ever existed in the history of the world (not now). He would certainly get some furrowed brows from people who have seen the UK since the war.

When I see compulsory donations to the church in Germany and attached liabilities when you buy a house in France etc, I know that this UTOPIA does not exist and every country has some good and bad points. I have only been to one country that has no redeeming features at all and that borders the red sea.

So I guess what I am saying is that I am more of an internationalist and I can feel allegiance to the system in France or Germany or the UK or the US - but I know their weaknesses too and I know that non of them are ordained by god to lead the world and be an example to everyone and when I read people saying things that are incredibly Nationalistic, (like the free speech thing)I feel like we have seen it all before.

My granddad was killed fighting the Germans and my dad was in the jungles of Burma fighting the Japanese. Neither of them were Nationalistic and both of them were forced to do it. My dad bought Japanese cars after the war and admired their workmanship.

He brought me up to have an allegiance to humanity and not to this religion or that religion or this country or that country - well not the kind of allegiance we are talking about which is a purely militaristic allegiance.

Unfortunately, the US is in a militaristic phase (1776 0n) and if it was at peace with no wars looming, we could see allegiance in another light.

Mitt Romney and his ilk (I have hear many politicians say it from all parties) is playing with fire but he doesn't care.

Edited by saywhat, 16 June 2010 - 02:37 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 14:35:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Well my husband is currently eligible for US citizenship but won't take it so there you have it - I'm sure you would find many other British people who feel the same way. My husband loves the US but feels he will always be British and doesn't want to go through the hoops just to avoid the USCIS in the future but wants to avoid the IRS if he moves back to Britain permanently. I don't take it personally, or even think it's remotely a political decision.


I have that IRS base covered. I will always be culturally British too but I know the danger of remaing a GC holder. It only takes one missed red light and someone killed in the other car, for him to be GC-less and UK bound. There are many other scenarios too that could end up in the same result. Also wifey could go work or live early retired with health care in England for a year or three without me losing status here.

As I said, I think it's neither black nor white. I suppose in theory, dual citizenship should be disallowed.


I should have asked that originally. That's fair enough. Thank you for engaging.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 14:15:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I never said it's great for foreigners to naturalize here, but not vice versa. I think the concept of dual nat in and of itself, regardless of country of origin/country of perm residence is fraught with a conlict of interest. I thought that was clear in my posts?



In that case, if you have doubts about the concept, do you disapprove of all the people who are seeking to become USC's if they will also become dual citizens ?

Would you vote for new USC's to be required to renounce their previous citizenship ?

I guess that's the nitty gritty of this discussion and what it all boils down to.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 14:07:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Bill Bryson, who is possibly the biggest American Anglophile you will ever find, won't become a citizen because he is too embarrassed he might fail the Knowledge of Life test. That someone who lived there for 20+ years and has written extensively about the UK is afraid of that test suggests that maybe the UK currently sets a higher bar for citizenship than the US presently does. What do you make of that?



I know a lot of people not including myself who did it, so I think you are very off base


I think Brit tests are hard including the driving test which would scare me. I did two times 3 week long residential advanced driving courses but I still wouldn't fancy the UK test.

I can't be that far off base when this lady is saying her Nationalism or Patriotism would not let her do UK citizenship - something is going on there and it can't be said
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 14:01:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Well, what does your wife give as her reasons?


Tracy your attention is wandering - I said she is unwilling/unable to give reasons but I sense (I feel) brainwashing at her school in just the same way I was brainwashed. We didn't stand up in class with a flag and an eagle and our hands on our hearts - it was actually worse than that and we were told we were better because the foreigners lived in hot countries - too hot to work - and that's why they were indolent.

It took me many years of travelling and working in Germany and France and Saudi and the US etc to be able to distinguish between truly fine countries and the others. I did however get over the idea that my country was the best in the world and the only one I could ever have allegiance to.

When I hear Mitt Romney say the the US is the finest country that has ever existed in the history of the world, I wonder what that implies about the others ?

Shades of Nuremberg
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 13:56:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I think you'll find a lot of USCs who take British citizenship, myself included


Wow you are a find !

Did it feel creepy - how did you think ? Did you feel you were letting the side down ?

Why are so many of your countrymen unwilling ? Do you have an insight ?

ps congratulations - seriously
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 13:49:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

'vigorous debate' does not include name calling and insults, and it never will.

I HAVE explained it, are you not reading my posts? I've explained it so much that I'm downright repetitive!


Name calling and insults ? Pointing out that 'one of the only countries' is bad English is not an insult.

I find the idea that all the countries of Europe plus /Australia/New Zealand/Canada and all the others do not have the wonderful free speech of the US is pretty condescending and supremacist and an insult to them - but it's 'just a feeling' I have.

But that's going back - let's go forward

I repeat, how come this citizenship is ok for the foreigners coming here, but not for USC's going the other way ? What do you reckon is going on in the minds of the other USC's ?
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 13:46:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I'm sorry, but I thought she had quite clearly given her own personal reasons for it in several different posts - the last of which being "but if ever faced with swearing an oath to the Queen, I couldn't personally do it because I wouldn't ever be able to mean it. It would be semantics. What would my oath be if it wasn't true?"

Edited to add - I'm still puzzled why this whole exchange turned into a 'fight' anyway. I thought it was meant as just a bouncing off of ideas - then it became this whole other thing with accusations of nationalism and the US somehow being 'better'. Very strange!


You confuse 'fight' with 'vigorous debate'


Why can we from all these countries be welcomed as USC's but USC's could never do it the other way round ? My USC wife is encouraging me to do the USC thing but she too could never do it in the UK.

How come it's such a one way thing ? She can't /doesn't want to, explain it either

When you get right down to it, it's the same as a Roman Citizen being offered Israeli citizenship in the year 0
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 13:23:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I just took it as a personal choice of hers vs. a personal choice of David Soul or whomever else.


Yes but what's the point of having a debate with someone who justifies their approach with 'i just felt' and 'oo no I couldn't'

I mean, don't we need to be able to find actual reasons for our 'feelings' if we are going to express and debate them ?

Is it good enough to say 'I don't know why I feel like this '

One is expected to come up with reasons - even when one is asked 'what do you love about your spouse'

Edited by saywhat, 16 June 2010 - 01:05 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 13:04:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

No, it doesn't reveal my view of 'them', it reveals the loyalty I will always hold for my own country, and the desire to not lie by pledging allegiance to another, when I truly could never mean it. Please don't try to tell me my own motivations for what I do. When I lived in England....I LOVED it. I wasn't always comparing it unfavorably to the US just out of duty...I saw things that I liked better, things I didn't like better. I appreciated it for what it was, and had a blast! I could cheer on England in the footy matches, and celebrate St George's day with the rest of em...but if ever faced with swearing an oath to the Queen, I couldn't personally do it because I wouldn't ever be able to mean it. It would be semantics. What would my oath be if it wasn't true?

You mistake me as a 'Nationalist' who can never see the USA doing wrong, who thinks we are the best in everything in the world...that is not true. And if you mistake me for one, how many others can you be doing the same to as well?

You said some personally insulting things in your last post, I am glad you are cooling down, but I have yet to see an apology.


You can wait on that until your view of we, who are pledging allegiance to another country, has crystallized. We are doing something you find personally repugnant but you can't make your mind up as to what that says about us.

If you are not a supremacist, you need to explain why you couldn't pledge allegiance to the Head of the British State.

How come it's ok for people like us, but not you ?

David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) has naturalised in the UK

Benedict Arnold ?
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 12:52:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

No, you misunderstood me. Meaning we're one of the only ones who get easily picked on for being patriotic. I wasn't trying to be insulting, please try to do the same though.


ok

cooling down

Right well there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism

A person can be PATRIOTIC without any reference to the worth of their own country compared to another. Putting your new country right on where it is going wrong is patriotic.

Nationalism involves saying that the flag is so sacred that they weep with pride when they look at it etc etc etc and their country is better than any other and it's ok for others to join the country and give total allegiance forever and under all circumstances, but you could never pay them the same compliment by going to their country and doing the same because - because your country is different - it's just better that's all


I understand Nationalism as I was brought up under a British Nationalist system.
At school, I was taught that the British Empire was the finest Empire the world had ever seen and I was shown a map of the world coloured red. I was told that I was incredibly lucky to be born white in the finest county, in the finest country, in the finest nation on earth. God was number one and he had placed Queen Elizabeth on earth as his direct representative and then the government and then the teachers and then me. The USA was inhabited by incredibly coarse, under educated, loud mouthed ignorant people who didn't know where Britain was and thought of only money, and the lower % of the population in the US were ignorant wage slaves.

That is Nationalism. I understand Nationalism. I reject Nationalism.

Your comments reveal you as a US Nationalist, and you can't be that without diminishing other nations. It's part of the deal. To say that you could never be a dual Citizen of another country reveals your view of 'them' and that you have internalised the same junk that I was fed

Edited by saywhat, 16 June 2010 - 12:32 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 12:32:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

I don't think Americans' attachment to the flag is scary....in fact, I see it that we're one of the only nations where people can make statements like that about.


One of the only Nations ?

Apart from the screwed up English produced by the American educational system, it's patent nonsense.

Remember the free world ? There are huge numbers of countries that have free speech.

Every country in Europe before we even start the list

You didn't invent free speech and even your constitution is lifted straight from the English bill of rights and the laws are English in their essence

You are not so unique and not special and it's that superior arrogance that gets up the noses of people of free countries with free speech and democracy (and health care) all around the world.

Luckily the future of the US is as a minority white country with more and more dilution of this right wing fantasy stuff

I will fit better into that USA than the USA which is your holy concept
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 12:07:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

For me to pledge loyalty to the Queen or any other flag would be a blatant lie...there would be no way that I could or would even fathom giving up my birthright, or pledging loyalty to a flag that is not my own.


So what do you think of the citizens of other countries who come to the US and do just that ?

They are doing something you could never do !

Do you see them as disloyal or traitors to their own old countries ?

Do you trust them ? Would you have more respect for them if they stayed GC ?
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 11:49:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Well, it's kinda like 'in good times and in bad' afaic...I think becoming a citizen IF you are prepared (on the ridiculously improbable notion that the US and UK would EVER go to war against each other) to quickly renounce US citizenship and fight against the US, then what does that say about your commitment to your US citizenship?

It's kinda like fidelity...you can't be 'faithful' to two different people. Ya gotta pick one.


Please understand, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here....I don't have a problem with others' dual nat, in fact, had I still been in the US UK relationship, I'd be all for him getting dual. I'm just saying as a concept *I personally* see the point Bob is trying to make.

Robin - I would expect, or at least hope, that the child would feel a *little more* allegiance to the country that reared him/her. Of course, nothing is absolute!


I think that the 'marriage' comparison is pretty valid.

You take a vow and make a commitment. If you are Mrs Tiger Woods and he is going with every hooker in Vegas then you are allowed out of your oath.

If I sign up with the US and they want to use a thermo nuclear weapon on the Yorkshire Dales or kidnap the CEO of BP and execute him, then I see that as the same thing

They have released me from my vows by their actions.

This attachment of some Americans to their flag is scary sometimes as it comes before everything and there is nothing their country can do that would cause them to let go.
Without that drag on them, the politicians will just do wilder and wilder things. It's interesting that Americans are prepared to slag off their government with the most appalling epithets, but somehow the flag and the country is a mystical concept and nothing to do with, and totally separate from, the government

The idea of someone giving up their birth country for citizenship is seen as 'oh well' but the idea of someone giving up US Citizenship is somehow a 'holy' thing and like poking god in the eye.

I will be a good husband while I am married and she plays the game - I will be a USC and a good citizen while the US plays the game. I will dump either or both of them if they go all Tiger Woods on me.

It takes two for a vow or an oath to work and that is a factor that many people never consider when demanding unconditional allegiance to either a spouse or a country
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-16 10:50:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

:lol: nice.

You do know I used to own a Morris myself, a 1968 Minor? When I'm back in Cali I'll find a pic and post.


Nah - I was relatively rich so I had a 1969 Morris Minor 1098cc 'A' series engine. The front suspension fell off as they did. I was fitting a new torsion rod (they had torsion rods not springs ) and it threw the bottle jack past my head and it landed 100 yards away.

I knacked my back lifting an engine into a moggy thousand on my own. Can't do that with American cars.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 19:37:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles
When Gerry Adams was head of the IRA, I sat next to him at breakfast in Dublin.

Seemed a quiet chap really

My other claim to fame was to head Prince Charles' motorcade

I came out of the electricity board's parking lot in a Morris 1000 and the town was quiet and sealed off

Looked in my mirror and the royal car was 15 yards behind me with the flags etc

His ears were huge !

We turned the corner and the road was lined with cheering schoolkids on both sides

I waved back
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 18:58:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Well, it's another one Alan can add to his files.Posted Image He'll have to cut out Al, though.


Too many Al's in this town

I can photoshop

I like photoshopping.

I would like to comment -- not in the forum ! but... :)

heck - just add 6 foot to that car.. ;)

Heaven forbid that GIN could ravage that beauty one day.... (F)
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 18:50:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles
I think any Brit who takes US nationality and expresses a willingness to bomb the UK, should have their UK passports cancelled immediately

If I were an American, I wouldn't want that kind of new citizen

If they will switch once, they will switch twice

I would rather have a new citizen who has fond thoughts of his country of birth and would be very reluctant to go and kill his friends/relatives/schoolfriends because that is normal

Anyone who would do that gladly is a psychopath and a turncoat anyway and not to be trusted

That's being real and that's getting away from all this pie in the sky theory
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 18:29:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

No, that's what she does. I am awakened by rosy-fingered dawn whilst dressed in my finest silk night clothes. I stretch daintily, and bluebirds fly to remove my peignoir. Fluffy bunnies bring me my coffee and breakfast of berries and clotted cream. It's all adorable.


hum yes that's all good....VERY good


Prince George : Marry? Never! I'm a gay bachelor, Blackadder, I'm a roarer, a rogerer, a gorger and a puker! I can't marry, I'm young, I'm firm buttocked, I'm...
Blackadder : Broke?
Prince George : Well, yes, I suppose so.
Blackadder : And don't forget sir, that the modern church smiles on roaring and gorging within wedlock, and indeed rogering is keenly encouraged.
Prince George : And the puking?
Blackadder : Mm. I believe still very much down to the conscience of the individual church-goer.


Blackadder : Caroline of Brunswick is the only available princess in Europe.
Baldrick : And what's wrong with her?
Blackadder : Get more coffee! It's horrid! Change it! Take me roughly from behind! No, not like that, like this! Trousers off! Tackle out! Walk the dog! Where's my presents!
Baldrick : All right! Which one do you want me to do first?
Blackadder : No, no that's what Caroline's like. She is famous for having the worst personality in Germany, and as you can imagine, that's up against some pretty stiff competition.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 17:25:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Oh dear. What have I done?Posted Image

I don't even smoke cigars.


That's not what the owl says. She says you chew beetlenuts too and scratch your rump when you get up on a morning.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 17:15:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Posted Image No, you're practically perfect in every way.

But it has to be a V8, sorry.


practically !!!! I have never been so insulated in my life !(grant available). Come on and go the extra mile - I am Bill clinton and you are Monika - now close your eyes and give it some welly !!!

practically indeed.
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 17:11:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles
yer no a bird are ya ?

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 17:03:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Naff off, I saw him first.

Tell me more about my new car, Alan.Posted Image


Well, as you would imagine, I am not the sort of brute who assumes he knows what you want.

Oh no, but I wouldn't take you to a kia showroom either

First I would ask you what kind of car - you would reply with 'blue' or 'red' etc so we would go to a 'red' car dealership to see what makes they have.

Perhaps you would want a soft top or the one with the bouquet already on the back seat and I would say "That's a very attractive feature"

No talk of ABS brakes or V6 engines or road holding while 4 wheel sliding through adverse camber bends on a wet road covered in slugs. NONE of that stuff

I would volunteer to pay extra for that special tinted glass that the cops can't see through to spot you on your iphone.

I know what a woman really wants and I would find those little touches like reversing sensors but not ones that go grrr in a low tone - I would have em changed so they make a little tweeting noise like sky larks in a meadow when you got too close to that lamp post behind you


You get the picture. Now where can you find a 22 year old male model who can think like that ?

Edited by saywhat, 15 June 2010 - 04:59 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 16:57:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

You're my kind of man...Posted Image


My shares are BP and Goldman - my car is Toyota

Has somebody got it in for me ?
Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 16:48:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Oh My. Time for curry. Agreed - need new thread.


I am a karahi gosht man myself

as prepared by the tribesman of the khyber on a wok but they don't call it a wok

A and B correct; C was "can I keep fixing your cars for you?" What woman would say no to THAT?Posted Image


test your brakes after and before driving off

My women don't need their cars maintaining coz I always buy them a brand new one

Edited by saywhat, 15 June 2010 - 04:38 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 16:39:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Well, himself is more of the puppy sort, indulged his whole life, but is actually not bad at taking care of himself when there's no woman around. He said he can't see being with another woman long term after me since I completely spoiled him. I kind of have a problem with indulging people I love at my own expense.

Manchildren aren't great in the long-term Alan -- be glad you aren't one.


Things to say on break up

A we will always be friends
b I will never be with anyone else
c.... can I borrow your lawn mower sometimes ?
d you will never take my wad alive !

Edited by saywhat, 15 June 2010 - 04:33 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 16:29:00
United KingdomNaturalization wobbles

Awww, you speak so sweetly Alan. :luv: Well, we'll see where he and I are in 2 years. We hope to still be best friends but you never no where life will take you. :) And he's so used to me doing everything related to immigration he's flummoxed. He'd probably stay a PR forever if it meant no difficult forms. He's a manchild, but he was MY manchild.


It's not fair - I would like to be a manchild - but every time I try it, I get called an inadequate git

So I become John Wayne/Superman/Clint and I am then called a callous, unfeeling, insensitive git

My son does a great lost puppy impression and the wimmin in Tenerife buy him drinks !

Jeez the blond 'airdresser said If I couldn't buy her $10 cocktails then I shouldn't have a GF coz I couldn't afford one .

I should have been born a swine or a puppy - us regular guys fall through the gap in the middle.

We don't complain but we do take notes

Edited by saywhat, 15 June 2010 - 04:23 PM.

Captain OatesMaleEngland2010-06-15 16:21:00