ForumTitleContentMemberSexCountryDate/Time
Middle East and North Africahelp
Moved this to the MENA forum as you ladies probably have the expertise to help her.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-18 17:16:00
Middle East and North AfricaStill no news from Rome
The last time the NYT ran an article on fiance waits I swear half the comments were a variation on "LOL u idiot just get married and you wont have 2 go thru the visa process!!!11eleven!!"

allousa, I'm so sorry to hear of this latest delay. It is beyond inhumane.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-18 16:49:00
Middle East and North AfricaWill there be trouble with my age?
It's not a personal attack to say "you're foolish and hasty for marrying this young?" I'm not trying to pick on you, but I find it beyond bizarre when VJers seize on someone else's relationship as foolish or ill-advised yet regard proposing after meeting once in person as just something normal people do NO JUDGING ME NO PUNCHBACKS.

We're all in non-traditional relationships here; in context, is being 17 any more problematic than not speaking your fiancee's language?
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-20 16:29:00
Middle East and North AfricaWill there be trouble with my age?
Well, right, but if we have a rule of polite discussion on an international board that makes certain judgments off-limits, shouldn't that extend to a younger couple?
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-20 16:21:00
Middle East and North AfricaWill there be trouble with my age?
QUOTE (sereia @ Dec 20 2007, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i can see why lion_lioness said what she did. (and it was said beautifully)

...but am i the only one who thinks getting married at 17/18 is too young?! huh.gif


It's surely no weirder than your average international relationship, no?
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-20 16:18:00
Middle East and North AfricaWill there be trouble with my age?
The petitioner is supposed to be the primary sponsor, but I think the sponsor has to be at least 18 years old. I'm not sure how the fact that it isn't legally binding factors in to all of this.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-20 13:07:00
Middle East and North AfricaWill there be trouble with my age?
QUOTE (LisaD @ Dec 19 2007, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My speculative answer would be that it will be ok providing they have both proven they are legal to marry. Depending on the laws in the OP's state, if with parental consent, it is legal to marry at her age, then it's a legal petition.


Yup.

I'm not sure what happens at the consulate, as she's not 18 yet, but if she has co-sponsors lined up she should be in good shape.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-20 13:02:00
Middle East and North AfricaMonday. Wish it was Sunday. 'cause that's my funday.
My mom was the same way. Four kids, so she wasn't going to cook six dinners! We were able to veto some things if we all didn't like them, but most of the time, we ate what was served.

C. isn't picky, really, but he and I have very different tastes, as in I'll eat pretty much anything, and he's a meat & potatoes guy & heavier food. I don't cook as creatively as I did before we were married, but he's getting better about it. One thing we've found that works well is stir fry, because the vegetables & meats can be added separately. For example, he doesn't like snow peas, but if we make a stir fry with them in, he can just pick them out. And if I am having a craving for shrimp and he likes beef, we can each have what we like with minimal effort. And to his credit, a lot of his 'dislikes' he's willing to try, and now he'll eat my chili.

Another thing we do, just to make sure we eat lots of vegetables is to have fresh cut veggies as a family-style side dish at dinner.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-10 14:58:00
Middle East and North AfricaFactors i've noticed about issuing visas in MENA
QUOTE (Jenn! @ Jan 4 2008, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (SandyNJack @ Jan 4 2008, 01:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I must say you women, that have gone to visit your men in their country, must have not been paying attention because I have clearly gotten the stink eye from Egyptian women watching Jack and I together.


We've has this discussion in MENA before. So you got the evil eye...why is that immediately interpreted as jealousy? That's rather vain, IMO.


Plus, it wouldn't explain why the American consulate, presumably not full of evil-eye-giving older women, would be delaying visas out of jealousy. But only in MENA and high fraud consulates.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-01-05 10:51:00
Middle East and North AfricaMore issues intelligent women help me!!
QUOTE (desert_fox @ Dec 16 2007, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (yassmine2878 @ Dec 15 2007, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I woudnt fret too terribly much about it. The petition is for getting your foot in the door, save the big guns for the interview. Mind you, some of the MENA consulates tend to have tabasco tampon days and make up their minds based on the original petition long before they interview the beneficiary. But you cant dig up evidence out of nothing. Do the best you can with what you have. Perhaps you'll have another visit together while awaiting NOA2? That would be an excellent time to create more evidence of an ongoing relationship.


You cannot add evidence of a subsequent meeting after you file the initial petition. Otherwise, everyone would be filing before they ever met.

Pictures alone are not sufficient. Photos are considered secondary evidence. You must have the promary evidence first, and use the photos to supplement your case.

Go back and visit, and document total; stamps, boarding passes, etc.


You can use the evidence of a subsequent meeting to show that there is an *ongoing* relationship, just not to establish the *initial relationship.*

OP, I'd second the recommendation of looking at financial records while he was in Italy. ATM withdrawals, bank receipts, credit card transactions, anything that can put him in the country when you were there.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-12-16 11:18:00
Middle East and North Africadealing with separation and lonliness
QUOTE (sereia @ Jan 26 2008, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Plenty of women had their husband's here already when I joined vj (and hadn't even filed my K-1 yet). And yes, some were pretty nasty (but thankfully they don't seem to post much these days) Hell,I think my very first post in MENA started a flame war against me and they didn't even know me at all yet! But I stuck around. And I was so thankful there were some here to give me advice on how to file, how to deal with the separation, and just plain fun distraction!
wink.gif I've even made friends. They have helped me more than I ever could imagine or thank them for. For saving thousands of dollars on using a lawyer and for the amazing support I have been given while waiting (and even now after my husband has arrived). VJ is a wonderful source for all those things. I think coming at it with a different attitude could help you in the long run. *hugs*


good.gif
I'm certainly glad that there were people here who had gone through the whole process who stuck around.


wahrania, there's probably plenty of people who can relate to you here. Many women have been pregnant with their husbands stuck in the other country. Many have had to deal with a long separation. That they're not going through it now doesn't mean that they can't be a good resource or support, if you let them.

(Plus, I have to say that even though the time we were separated wasn't all that long (nine months), it is absolutely nothing compared to the adjustment once he arrived, and that's with a very happy relationship and no culture shock. Just because someone has her husband here doesn't mean it's all sunshine and roses.)
CaladanMaleCanada2008-01-26 13:40:00
Middle East and North AfricaMuh Buh Puh...Ready to go???
At laaaaaaaaaassssst! :)
CaladanMaleCanada2007-02-09 22:42:00
Middle East and North AfricaHere is a culture difference that bugs me...
QUOTE (AlHayatZween @ Feb 21 2008, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Once i was at my SO's family's house in the mountains of Morocco. i was totally sick with a stomachache and couldn't eat anything. It was during Eid al Kebir, and his sister-in-law made a great big thing of couscous. i just couldn't eat it... i couldn't eat anything.

Instead of explaining the situation, he said: "She doesn't eat couscous." And the poor woman looked at me like i had insulted her and her cooking.

Then i had to explain in my broken Arabic that i was sick, and no one believed me because of what he had already said. it was very frustrating, even though Habibi later explained why.... in any event, i still don't know what's wrong with telling the truth. devil.gif



Think of an analogous social situation here. It's a little harder because we don't have anything directly analogous to that form of hospitality. Maybe a company party or a work environment where you have to handle something with tact in order to avoid giving offense and to be considered a class act.

Here, saying 'I'm not feeling well, I'll pass on the appetizers' isn't taken as an insult to a hostess. But 'I won't come to your party because your cousin gets drunk and gropes me' wouldn't be a tactful way to handle it, but saying "I'm not feeling well, I'll have to decline" wouldn't offend anyone. It's a similar thing, it's just what counts as ritual politeness varies.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-02-21 16:05:00
Middle East and North AfricaHere is a culture difference that bugs me...
I have a couple Iranian-American friends who say that hospitality is held in very, very high esteem not so much by them (as they've assimilated to American norms), but by their parents and grandparents and things like poverty or illness or just not feeling like it aren't excuses not to be hospitable like they would be here.

It's probably easier to say 'She's in India' than to try to explain 'She's not being rude, she's American and in America it is considered permissible to beg off of a social duty when you are ill.'
CaladanMaleCanada2008-02-21 15:41:00
Middle East and North AfricaWHO PAYS FOR ALL THE PLANE TICKETS
Dude, whatever peezey was doing on this thread was not trolling.

She disagreed with someone, had the facts about Islamic marriage to back it up, and was posting (as did other people) to correct the idea that if a Muslim guy says 'you're being a bad wife for not supporting me, sugar mama, I will not call you' it's just his religion talking and not something any American woman should put up with on account of cultural differences.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-07-03 12:47:00
Middle East and North AfricaWHO PAYS FOR ALL THE PLANE TICKETS

ummmmmm the 'side of the street' comment was not meant to be literal. My cliche of one is full, thank you. (when there is an opening, I will let you all know)

J :luv:


Good, because you're one of the most supportive people on this site with the sleepovers and all. :)
CaladanMaleCanada2007-07-03 08:34:00
Middle East and North AfricaWHO PAYS FOR ALL THE PLANE TICKETS
And then after we pick sides, maybe we can have a secret Pink Ladies handshake.

Newcomers should not feel as though they have to pick sides. They can ignore who they like. With or without the ignore button.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-07-03 08:10:00
Middle East and North AfricaWHO PAYS FOR ALL THE PLANE TICKETS
And even if, though I doubt it, everyone who has posted is wrong about Islamic marriages.... there's only so much 'but it's his cuuuulllture' can justify. Who the hell cares if he blames his assholish behavior on Islam? Doesn't change the facts of the situation.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-07-02 22:17:00
Middle East and North AfricaWHO PAYS FOR ALL THE PLANE TICKETS
How convenient for Mr. Morocco to be able to wrap up taking your wife's money and refusing to call her as just the way a Muslim man is. Don't worry, American sweeties, your man is supposed to be an inconsiderate ####### and you're supposed to give him all your cash. If you don't do that, you're not respecting your man.

In other news, I'm selling bridges. Come on.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-07-02 08:54:00
Middle East and North AfricaWHO PAYS FOR ALL THE PLANE TICKETS
Fine, they were just friends while she was married, he learns she's having problems getting her husband to talk to her once he finds out he's not eligible to come to the U.S., and now this 'friend' wants to be more than friends. Methinks the friend thinks she's an easy mark, not that he's just fallen in love with her.

Also, while the experience of many women here suggests that Moroccan men, to the extent that you can generalize, are hard workers who like to provide for their families, between the fact that Morocco isn't a wealthy nation and the exchange rate, you're not going to find a Moroccan sugar daddy.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-06-28 08:59:00
Middle East and North AfricaWHO PAYS FOR ALL THE PLANE TICKETS
If I had been burned by someone overseas, I wouldn't immediately jump to the next overseas guy that made romantic overtures. Please take some time to let yourself heal and think.
CaladanMaleCanada2007-06-27 23:53:00
Middle East and North AfricaJobs in Michigan
QUOTE (77Maureen @ Mar 6 2008, 06:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
times are rough here in Michigan, i wish something good happens soon.


C. was just there on business for six weeks (Cadillac, MI), and said it was unbelievable. He met a guy who helped him clean off the treads (without asking, just started cleaning) on his rig and then disappeared. He caught up with him later and gave him $10 for his trouble (about an hour's work) and the guy said he normally makes $5 for cleaning out the grates at the car wash, which takes him 3 hours. Since the factory closed he bicycles around every day, makes about $40 in odd jobs and they squeak by on his wife's salary.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-08 09:31:00
Middle East and North AfricaUAE Nationals ~ HELP!!!
Have you two met in person yet?
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-06 22:54:00
Middle East and North AfricaStupid Question?
See, there's two ways to read this:

1) "If I just wanted a green card, I could get that without you".... "so obviously you have nothing to worry about sweetie, because I'm here because I love you."
2) "If I just wanted a green card, I could get that without you"... "and I'm about ready to walk out the door and prove that."
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-14 14:40:00
Middle East and North AfricaStupid Question?
It depends. Once AOS is approved, if he just leaves, he'll have problems lifting conditions in two years. If you two were to divorce, he'd be able to file to remove conditions on his own based on a bonafide marriage. If he leaves before AOS is approved, he's not going to be able to adjust status.

But it sounds like you had an argument. I'm not sure why wahrania brought the age gap into it, because I-don't-need-you-to-stay-here is not something that's good to say even if the couple is the same age. It sounds like you two need to talk about this.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-14 09:47:00
Middle East and North AfricaAmerican's view on Islam
QUOTE (julianna @ Mar 15 2008, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Caladan @ Mar 15 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If we're talking weird, Revelation says the city of God only has room for 144,000 people. Guess where you're all going. wink.gif


Not necessarily anywhere smile.gif It says 144,000 of the Jews will be sealed, and then goes on to discuss many things, including gentiles and other believers. The Bible also gives the borders of Israel of that time and then makes it clear believers will live out from Israel as well and will come to Jerusalem during the feast of Sukkot and bring their harvests. Ezekiel, Isaiah, Revelation, etc all speak about the millennial kingdom and who will occupy it, how people will live, and go on with their lives although the basic goal will be changed in a sense-- as will the timeline. !44,000 is not the concrete and finite number of the kingdom, but is only the number mentioned for the Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. Matt 25:31-46 and Zechariah 12:10 discuss those that live on and their children in here: Genesis 15:2-6; Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 3:20. General information is here: Isaiah 2:2-4; Zechariah 14:8-21; Ezekiel 34:17-24; Daniel 7:13-14; Micah 4:1-5, and of course Revelation in its entirety (second coming is here: 19:11-16).

Ha! And just by chance, Jehovah's Witnesses just came, but they were looking for Spanish-speaking people they told me (in perfect English) and did not want to tlak to me. How's that for a first? JW not wanting to talk to someone?? I told them I would be happy to talk to them about Yeshua, but they backed away and fell over themselves to run.



Still, only 12,000 per tribe? 6 million murdered in the Holocaust. Are they all living in the suburbs of the city of God? wink.gif What's the commute like?

It should be obvious that I was speaking a little tongue-in-cheek.

My point is that if we read one line in any religion's text, we can form a weird picture of what the religion believes. "Paradise means you get 40 virgins" is about as simplistic as "Only 144,000 Jews get to go to heaven"; if we correctly assume that the latter picture is too simplistic, why can we not do the same for the former instead of saying 'lol you can't have sex with a spiritual body', or wondering whether the supply of virgins is replenished (they don't last!)
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-15 11:22:00
Middle East and North AfricaAmerican's view on Islam
If we're talking weird, Revelation says the city of God only has room for 144,000 people. Guess where you're all going. wink.gif
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-15 10:00:00
Middle East and North AfricaAmerican's view on Islam
Algerian law is not Islam! This should not be all that hard! Likewise, the second Amendment is not part of Judaism! The primary system is not part of Buddhism!

AAAAAAAAAHHH.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-02 10:32:00
Middle East and North AfricaAmerican's view on Islam
Goodness, guys. I'm not sure how anyone is disagreeing with Virtual Wife here. There is what the religion says you need to do to be in good with God, and there are ways that has been interpreted or misinterpreted by the culture in which the religion is embedded. An example from my own tradition: the Day of the Dead mixed with Catholicism in Latin American countries. Not an official church holiday. But it sure looks like one from the outside.

This is why religions have scholars, to sort out what is practiced out of local custom from what is required.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-01 09:33:00
Middle East and North AfricaAmerican's view on Islam
QUOTE (Jenn! @ Feb 28 2008, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Ganja_Girl @ Feb 27 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath? blink.gif


I think this is a good question, and in my personal opinion it is because humans have a need to explain things in terms that they understand.

Understanding God, whatever you conceive him to be, is beyond human capability IMO.



The Jewish sage Maimonides, in responding to scholars who were arguing that 'The Voice of God spoke' entailed 'God must have a body' said "The Torah speaks in the language of men." It's a useful thing to keep in mind.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-02-29 10:06:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
QUOTE (wahrania @ Mar 18 2008, 08:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Caladan @ Mar 18 2008, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Virtual wife @ Mar 18 2008, 04:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is about her, but you have been making it about you and your insecurities and prejudices. I don't care to follow your example. so sue me.


Exactly. wahrania, you've been going on on Moroccan men for 14 pages now, and tammy's husband's Jordanian. This suggests that it isn't really about your concern or deep insight into tammy's situation.

And you keep going on about how everyone else is in a relationship that needs tests, or they're too old for their husbands.... why does none of this apply to you? Either you failed to notice that tammy's husband is from Jordan, and the Morocco stuff is irrelevant based on your bizarre ethnic calculus, or that you think that information about young Moroccan men applies to everyone... except you.

You have spent more time on this thread attacking me than addressing the issue at hand...If she was your friend and had kids in her house,would you encourage her to continue exposing them to this #######..Jordanian,chinese..lithuanian...the guys a little ####### and shes going to end up hurting those kids and herself...She doesnt need a test...she needs to wake up and send his #### home


I addressed the issue at hand and you've gone on for pages about Moroccans. Give it a rest. This isn't about you.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-18 08:13:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
QUOTE (Virtual wife @ Mar 18 2008, 04:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is about her, but you have been making it about you and your insecurities and prejudices. I don't care to follow your example. so sue me.


Exactly. wahrania, you've been going on on Moroccan men for 14 pages now, and tammy's husband's Jordanian. This suggests that it isn't really about your concern or deep insight into tammy's situation.

And you keep going on about how everyone else is in a relationship that needs tests, or they're too old for their husbands.... why does none of this apply to you? Either you failed to notice that tammy's husband is from Jordan, and the Morocco stuff is irrelevant based on your bizarre ethnic calculus, or that you think that information about young Moroccan men applies to everyone... except you.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-18 07:45:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
Especially since tammy's husband is from Jordan, right? No need to bring in Morocco at all?

So if C. and I were to get divorced, make sure to go on about Australian men and how they can't be trusted. Why not? I'm sure it meets some basic standard of rationality.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-17 12:50:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
QUOTE (wahrania @ Mar 17 2008, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Caladan @ Mar 17 2008, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Look, wahrania, you don't know more about this than tammy, even if you did divorce a Moroccan man once and now only date Algerians, because it's her life. One doesn't know whether she originally posted too hastily, or whether things can get sorted out, but because he's younger and not ALGERIAN, because there's never been any evidence of fraud out of MENA that wasn't MOROCCAN, you've got the whole story. Glad your crystal ball's working better than mine, but sweet sunshine, this is a little crazy to be insisting you know what's best for someone based on your own experiences and three forum posts.

And insisting that childish revenge is the way to go is beyond absurd. Good, make it so he looks like an abuse victim. I'm sure nothing could go wrong with that strategy. I'm sure 'but he didn't share his cash from removing snow' will be a fantastic defense in court.

tammy, don't delude yourself. Find a friend or priest or someone who knows you and you can trust to be honest and share your concerns with them. It can be very easily to rationalize away what you suspect to be true because it's a pretty awful truth, and it's harder to do that if your friends are there to be a second set of eyes.

Listen

I will usually see you as the voice of reason Caladan......but come on

Hes not sleeping with her...2 weeks after he got here he moved out of her room

He hoards his money

He sits at the computer and chats with other women and lo
oks at porn

Frankly,just pick up a shovel and bash my head in..I'll be damned if I will condone this #######

You dont need a crystal ball to see what he is doing...ITS FREAKINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG OBVIOUS////HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOo


I don't deny any of that. I do deny the generalization to all age gap relationships, all mosques, all men as long as they're Moroccan and not Algerian because wake up, there's a lot of fraud in MENA and it isn't all out of Morocco. I do deny that little gotcha tests are going to prove anything. You don't know he's getting coached. I didn't see the bit in her original post about chatting with women and looking at porn. I still don't see it.

I do deny that anyone can have a good view of anyone's life based on three posts of her own life. With the information we have, I think Tammy should not support him any further. I still think childish revenge pranks are more likely to get her in trouble than not.

On the other hand, I see why Hayati is getting annoyed.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-17 11:45:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
Look, wahrania, you don't know more about this than tammy, even if you did divorce a Moroccan man once and now only date Algerians, because it's her life. One doesn't know whether she originally posted too hastily, or whether things can get sorted out, but because he's younger and not ALGERIAN, because there's never been any evidence of fraud out of MENA that wasn't MOROCCAN, you've got the whole story. Glad your crystal ball's working better than mine, but sweet sunshine, this is a little crazy to be insisting you know what's best for someone based on your own experiences and three forum posts.

And insisting that childish revenge is the way to go is beyond absurd. Good, make it so he looks like an abuse victim. I'm sure nothing could go wrong with that strategy. I'm sure 'but he didn't share his cash from removing snow' will be a fantastic defense in court.

tammy, don't delude yourself. Find a friend or priest or someone who knows you and you can trust to be honest and share your concerns with them. It can be very easily to rationalize away what you suspect to be true because it's a pretty awful truth, and it's harder to do that if your friends are there to be a second set of eyes.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-17 11:10:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
QUOTE
If we all paid attention to culture very very carefully,none of us would marry them


That doesn't strike me as a reason to ignore culture.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-16 11:20:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
I also have to add that I don't see the value in most of the tests, because they all involve asking someone who may be trying to deceive you whether he's trying to deceive you, or generalizing so broadly about human behavior as to be useless.

The only cure is to know the culture, the language, and to know the person a long time before getting married. Anything less than that may work out well, but it's still a risk.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-16 10:58:00
Middle East and North AfricaHow much do you really know about your MENA man?
tammy, I'm so sorry to hear of this. You are very strong, and very brave to share this that it might help others in the same position. All luck and strength as you resolve this. rose.gif
CaladanMaleCanada2008-03-16 00:52:00
Middle East and North AfricaNon-Muslims married to Muslim MENA
QUOTE (sarahaziz @ Apr 18 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (wife_of_mahmoud @ Apr 18 2008, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (sarahaziz @ Apr 18 2008, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (wife_of_mahmoud @ Apr 18 2008, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The first two conflicts in your list are over land, not religion. Casual observers may become confused because the opposing sides are of different religions/ethnicities. But if you study the roots of these two conflicts, you will see a similar pattern -- the invasion by a more powerful group of foreigners/outsiders, and their forcible confiscation and "settlement" of native-owned land.

Several of the others on your list have been quite over-simplified as well. Do not underestimate the motivations of wealth, power, and competition for resources and strategic influence.


I think ganja girl was right. The land is "holy" therefore they are fighting to save a religious holy land.


You may think so, but if you will read some history, you will see otherwise:

QUOTE
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict resulted from competing Jewish and Arab national aspirations for the region of Palestine, conflicting promises by the British in the forms of the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence and the Balfour Declaration of 1917, and several outbreaks of violence between Jewish and Arab residents of the region of Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia....tinian_conflict


QUOTE
The conflict between Palestinian Arabs and Jews is a modern phenomenon, which began around the turn of the 20th century. Although these two groups have different religions (Palestinians include Muslims, Christians and Druze), religious differences are not the cause of the conflict. It is essentially a struggle over land.

http://www.merip.org...isr-primer.html


QUOTE
At the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a dispute over land and borders.
http://news.bbc.co.u...tml/default.stm


Of course the territory of Ireland is not considered the "Holy Land," but like I said, it is also a conflict over land:

QUOTE
The origins of conflict between Catholics and Protestants in the north of Ireland lie in the British settler-colonial Plantation of Ulster in 1609, which confiscated native owned land and settled Ulster with (mainly Protestant) English and Scottish "planters".

http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Troubles


I don't mean to derail the thread. We can discuss the subject further if you like in a new topic.



The fight over that holy land goes way way back. I understand your point of view, but I also suggest you read further back in history. Posting modern links it's not relevant. It's just sugar coating the fight b/t Palestine and Israel in my opinion.


But the fight is over modern problems. Saying 'oh, it's just historical' is too often cheap absolution from the responsibilities of recent history. Sure, there's historical tensions, but they'd be historical curiosities if not for actual policies and action done in this past century.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-04-18 12:10:00
Middle East and North AfricaArab Bashing
Dude, wahrania, aren't you in a May-December relationship yourself? It's somewhere beyond the pot calling the kettle black and the kettle losing her sh!t because there is another kettle!!!!one!1!

According to Islam, marriage entail certain legal rights. (This makes it different from some forms of Christianity, but even they will balk at performing a religious ceremony without a legal one.) No legal rights, no Islamic marriage. Maybe a piece of paper that makes it easier to get around in public on holiday, maybe something that's newly acceptable. (Or not. Would the guys be okay with their sisters having this marriage?) But I don't see a way that it's a legally recognized marriage if the person's then filing a K-1.
CaladanMaleCanada2008-04-19 10:29:00